Toby Mac and Third Day: More Examples of Covert Occultism?

I strongly recommend some preparatory reading if you really want to follow along and better understand this article: At a minimum, the Intro, Ch. 1, Ch.2, and Ch. 11 from my online "book", Wolves in Sheep's Clothing.


Below: Toby Mac-- a "rapper" formerly with DC Talk (now on his own), well-known in the Contemporary Christian Music world.



Notice the obvious Lion's Paw occult symbol pose with his right hand. Notice the (Masonic) black and white checkered shirt. Notice how one of his eyes is obscured in the shadows, thus creating the All-Seeing Eye presentation.

Masonic halls throughout the world manifest this black-and-white tiling. The British royal family, among the world's leading occultists, celebrated the recent wedding of Prince William at Westminster Abbey, a structure literally overloaded with satanic symbolism...including the black and white tiling (see below):



Not to mention...the satanic priest who presided over the wedding ceremony. Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Cantebury, is also a confirmed and practicing Druid. Orthodox Bible students would routinely equate Druidism to Satanism. Notice how his hands are conspicuously pointed downwards...a blatant indication of luciferian allegiance. This is known in the occult world as "praying to the Devil".



And notice below, the yoni-shaped hats worn by various guests at the wedding (except for the third photo). The hat designers have bent over backwards to incorporate occult symbols in these hat designs. The football-shaped yoni symbol is the female counterpart to phallic symbolism seen throughout elite satanic circles:


(Special thanks to the GalatiansFour blog for these insights into the royal wedding!)


Getting back to Toby Mac--look at some of his CD covers. The "one eye" presentations go on and on. I have used a couple of red highlighting circles:









In the context of these other occult indicators, I would dare surmise this one (below) looks very much like a pyramid (elongated though it may be)...and another "all-seeing eye" at the top of the pyramid. Conceptually similar, for example, to the pyramid/all-seeing-eye presentation on the US One Dollar bill.




Here is another photo, apparently taken during the same session as the one at the top. Notice he seems to be, again, carefully keeping his hand in this same position-- the Lion's Paw position. And once again, his one eye is obscured in the shadows...creating yet another 'one eye' presentation. Creepy stuff!




In this photo (apparently a wider angle of the photo at the top), notice the overall posture..as though he is saluting, almost in a soldier-like fashion. A 'soldier' in which army though?




Notice the grouping of "buildings" at the bottom of this cover. This is a pretty obvious "flipping the bird" phallic presentation. An indication of the kind of hatred a "wolf in sheep's clothing" secretly carries against his Christian fans? This kind of 'naughty' optical illusion has been done many times before. Not very original stuff. See the movie poster example further below.




Hollywood movie poster--"Visioneers":




Here is a DC Talk album cover with a very obvious "all-seeing eye" satanic symbol.


Notice also those emanating rays. You will see those all over the occult world. This may have originated with Aleister Crowley who depicted these rays in his symbolism designs. This depiction (below) appeared in Crowley's satanic book "The Book of Law" (1904). The "rays" supposedly represent the 'enlightenment' which emanates from Lucifer:



Below: Another example of occult "rays"--Meria Heller, a popular Internet psychic. Orthodox Bible students would, of course, prefer the term "witchcraft practitioner".



Another example: Crowley's satanic rays, right smack on the logo of a US government agency--the ultra-creepy Information Awareness Office--




More indication from Michael W. Smith? Can you spot the apparent evidence below? It took me a while but...there it is, right in the center of the photo: The Kabbalah bracelets on his wrist:





This is a poster advertising a recent mini-tour involving Michael Smith, Toby Mac, Third Day, and Max Lucado. Here again, we see these emanating rays.



I have begun to run across some indications of occultism in connection with Max Lucado. Some of his book cover designs deftly incorporate triangles and truncated pyramids (see below).




But it could very well be that he has no awareness of his book cover designs nor of the potential indications of occult allegiance with the people in the concert poster photo. He certainly has fallen hook-line-and-sinker for this new-fangled Contemplative Prayer nonsense (thinly veiled Eastern-style occultism), which is coming from the Emergent Church crowd. That does not bode well.

I have been baffled and saddened at the way in which so many Evangelical luminaries have somehow been sucked into this stuff--Chuck Swindoll, Bill Hybels, Phillip Yancey...on and on.


More occult indicators from Toby Mac: The photo below seems to depict some disturbingly ingenious stuff. Let me say this carefully: In the context of all these other occult symbols...this looks like a modifed "square and compass" Masonic symbol presentation.

Satanists and Masons (many times, these two are one and the same category) have created a huge variety of modified "square and compass" presentations. I provide examples all throughout my "Wolves" blog/book. We've already seen how Toby Mac has previously flashed Masonic indicators. This appears to be yet another.



If you look carefully at his very odd and conspicuous pose, his right arm appears to represent the "square"...and his left arm is positioned as a "compass". The classic Masonic square has a 90 degree angle, and the compass has a V shape, exactly as Toby Mac seems to be presenting it:




Below: A suspected "Square and Compass" presentation from Kenneth Copeland. You can read in the latter part of my Ch.13 regarding potential evidence of Copeland's occult allegiances.



Below: Again, IN CONTEXT...this appears to be an occult symbol presentation...by use of deliberately structured triangular facial hair. Recall Michael Smith's 'hair issues' in Ch.1 of "Wolves"!



And if all of that isn't enough, Toby Mac actually has a song about (in support of?) the Illuminati, entitled "Ill-M-I". What in the world?!--

Ill-M-I, Ill-M-I, Ill-M-I, Ill-M-I and you
Illuminati comin' thru
Ill-M-I, Ill-M-I, Ill-M-I, Ill-M-I and you
Illuminati comin' thru


LINK--Youtube video: Toby Mac's 13 Ill-M-I


THIRD DAY

As far as Third Day...they do have a very blatant occult symbol for their official logo (see below--red highlighted rectangle)...but until recently I had hoped they were merely like a number of other Christian bands who may only be inadvertently using occult symbolism because they think it "looks cool". Upon closer inspection though, I am no longer so optimistic about these guys.



Their logo (see above) combines a Sufi-style winged presentation with a moon god symbol (the intersecting crescents) at the center.

Here is a Third Day CD cover with just the moon symbolism, minus the Sufi wings:



These intersecting crescents can apparently also double as a "yoni" presentation. Occultists love double, triple, quadruple (etc.) meanings for their symbols. Recall the yoni-shaped hats worn by royal 'elites', earlier in this article.

And the aforementioned Sufi occultism comes out of the Muslim world. In the same way Kabbalism is a satanic counterpart to Judaism, Sufi occultism is the explicitly satanic alternative to Islam. Below: Typical Sufi wing symbolism--

LINK


On this Third Day cover art there is a depiction of the "infinity" occult symbol.

Yes, it has a legitmate role as a mathematics symbol. But this is also (and primarily) a well-established satanic indicator. Below, you see an example of the ancient occultic Alchemy symbol for brimstone. It incorporates both the Double Cross of Lorraine, as well as the Infinity symbol. Both are occult symbols in their own right.



Below--yet another occultic depiction of the infinity symbol--on a Tarot card referred to as "The Magician". And below that, the 2007 Christmas CD from Michael W. Smith which, as you see, incorporates the infinity symbol twice.






More "Third Day" occult symbolism:



There are any number of occult symbols on this CD cover. For now, I'll point out two of them. Firstly, you see in the lower red-highlighted circle...the symbol for "chaos"...with the eight outward-pointed arrows. This occult indicator is so obvious that Third Day fans were raising questions about it on the band's discussion board:

"Hi, I'm very concerned about the following. On their latest album, Third Day uses a occult symbol which stands for chaos (the circle with eight arrows coming from it). If you google for images on "symbol chaos", you will see the image they used. For those of you who read Dutch look the symbol up on www.verhoevenmarc.be/_symbolen.doc.

I do not understand why a 'Christian' band would use such a symbol. Especially since our God is a God of order and not of chaos. Third Day if one you guys reads this, please explain why you use the symbol."
LINK

LINK

The other (oval-shaped) red-highlighting: I strongly suspect (given the context) this is the Masonic "A". Understanding this particular aspect may require 10-15 minutes of reading (if you haven't done so already) through my "Tim LaHaye" section of Ch.14. Go to that chapter and scroll down just a bit, until you see the "Tim LaHaye" heading. A little bit of the way through the LaHaye section, I get into this specific matter of the Masonic "A".




I can be emailed at matttwofour@yahoo.com.
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185 comments:

  1. I just popped on your blog today after a week-long "awakening" and am saddened to see some of my concerns about Toby Mac confirmed. My husband suspected the connection after reading his minimal response to the Illuminati question. If anything, he is not being vocal enough about these issues. These symbols are rampant in the hip hop industry. So many have “sold out” I would think he would have a commentary on the matter. I just checkout out the “me without you” song on You Tube and it also has some questionable symbols. Black, red, and white colors throughout and Targets throughout…..isn’t that also an occult symbol?….. (point within a circle???)
    I have been doing a ton of research on these symbols in the media…What they mean and the connection between Masonry and Satanism. I have been in a state of shock for the entire week. I feel as if my entire perception of life in general has been wrong and I have suddenly come out of the Matrix …… Everywhere I turn I see these symbols that were of no concern before……I can’t get away from it. I have completely eliminated Disney Channel for my children and have been more anxious than I have ever been. Afraid to look anywhere. Vigilant Citizen has been a great tool for learning as I had no idea about MK Ultra etc.….but all of this information is overload. I need to refocus!!!
    I pray every night for peace and I keep asking God why I have been AWOKEN now, at this time….what can I personally do….I feel like hiding in a hole, but I know that is not the answer. How come so many Christians are not aware of this stuff?????
    Blessings to you and thanks.

    PS. Bono was a HUGE blow to me as well this week as I used to think they were a good example of being a Christian in a secular band. After rewatching the YAWEH official video I was shocked at the blasphemy. How come I did not see that before?????…and all of that Co-exist stuff…. (Read Diversity Toby Mac???). I love-loved U2….and am a bit shocked and sad. He was promoting the message bible last I heard. Maybe I should toss my message in the trash?!

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  2. Can I ask if you think some of these people may be doing this unknowingly? I mean, even I own a checkered shirt but I'm not part of the illuminati. I'm not saying some of your points are not valid, but I also think we should be careful and not try to find evil everywhere especially through "symbols" that most people don't associate anything with, like the scrollwork on the Michael W. Smith album cover. I have separate issues with TobyMac's music (a lot of lyrics aren't glorifying to God, cult of personality and entertainment-focused instead of worship focused), but I don't think I can say it's some evil conspiracy either (apart from the evil inherent anytime the focus is on self or the world.) While I appreciate calling out wolves, I guess I just don't see the point in focusing on some secret society especially and it seems like something we could get too focused on. There is plenty of Scripture twisting and outright blasphemy going on unchecked in our churches apart from looking for symbols around every corner.
    Thank you for listening.

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  3. I'm the same anon as above.

    I just read through the portions of your ebook you referenced above and it answered my questions. I apologize for my hasty assumptions because it seems we agree on a lot of things and have a similar perspective. I will read the references first next time before I post something in haste. Good lesson.

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  4. Okay Matt, just saw Toby Mac's newest album cover. Guess what it is? Yup, a bit, giant EYE. Title - "Eye on It"

    I think we can now state that he knows and yes, Toby, we know too.

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    1. Are you kidding me?? Wow. It almost feels personal. Do some of these guys see us discussing their covert luciferianism and then decide to kick it up a notch?

      It's interesting that though these occultists view us Red Pill onlookers as impotent losers (oh, the surprise that awaits)...they nevertheless keep their camouflage and coded signalings carefully in place.

      That's the glory of a Jesus-follower: We stand out in broad daylight as sheep among wolves, announcing our faith in Jesus. Those guys have to hide in the shadows.

      Yes, they will have their brief hey-day. They will throw many innocent people into the dungeons and the valley of death. But after only a couple or three years of their "New World Order", the festivities will be interrupted by the sound of a trumpet.

      Thanks for the 'heads up', Labby. I think I may add an "edit" paragraph about this latest CD cover. And I see he's naming his entire tour, "Eye On It".

      Delete
    2. I looked a little closer at some of the lyrics on his "Illuminati" song:

      “One day, I’m'a make the whole world pay” and “And if I miss with my missles you’re still gonna sizzle
      ‘Cause I frizzle fry radiation style worldwide”

      Well, isn't that lovely. He's right though. The Antichrist cabal is going to make the whole "pay" in a manner of speaking. And if they don't get everybody with brute military force...there's always HAARP and all the other creepy EM technologies they're going to implement...exactly as TobyMac seems to be bragging.

      Quite clearly, his lyrics are suggesting he is looking forward to becoming a hands-on mass murderer:
      "I frizzle fry..worldwide".

      I suppose if he was confronted directly in an interview about this (not likely in the discernment-free world of CCM)...he would claim "poetic license".

      Toby, Toby, Toby. Do you dream and fantasize about mass murder?

      Delete
  5. My wish for people who spend SO MUCH TIME AND EFFORT looking for symbolism on the surface, is that you would invest your efforts into witnessing to others the way tobyMac has. All you are going off of is a hunch. This man, in EVERY way, has devoted his life to spreading the Gospel through music. What evidence of any wrongdoing, other than your own skepticism, do you have?

    He has NEVER backed down from the Gospel. Use your efforts to do good!

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    1. "Witnessing"? I sat down and read through the lyrics of twenty-three Toby Mac songs this evening. Not one single bit of Gospel presentation. You can't "witness" unless you're conveying the truth of the Gospel.

      You say he's "never backed down from the Gospel". OK--how do you actually define the Gospel? That's a pretty tricky question these days.

      Besides the fact that I can't find ANYWHERE in his lyrics that he has presented the Gospel in the first place (and I'm not saying he hasn't presented some sort of "pray a prayer to Jesus and go to heaven" comment in between songs)...

      ...there is the additional tragic fact that most people define the Gospel as...

      "pray a prayer, then join a PreTrib-by-default / 'Contemplative Prayer' occult-practicing / proud-as-a-peacock triumphalist Dominonist church group."

      Between the PreTrib deceptions, the occult practicing, and the Dominionism...the vast majority of today's fair weather "Christ-followers" are headed for apostasy and doom...per Jesus' explicit prediction.

      Jesus has prophesied (and I quote) "the love of most will grow cold...and only he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

      FYI--Wolves who have infiltrated Christian circles (whoever they may be) don't care WHO prays a little prayer...as long as they know they're corralling these sheep into apostasy during the last phases before the end.

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  6. Hello here! Just saying, someone posted a link to this page (That is how I discovered you) in Toby Mac's facebook post explaining his "why" of the big eye on the cover of the cd, and shortly after it was erased. Interesting, if he didn't have anything to hide, why erase it?
    By the way, I like your blog and I'm gonna read your book. Thanks for all the info you post. I'll keep coming back.

    Linda.

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    1. Wow--that's pretty spooky. You're absolutely right: If we're all brothers and sisters here...and if people are concerned and have questions as to why a prominent CCM artist is using obvious satanic symbolism...why wouldn't the concerns be addressed? Instead, they erase (he erases) the entire comment??

      All Toby Mac would need to do to clear the air is produce a short Youtube video in which he personally appears (so that we could see HE was the one making the actual comment) in which he clearly repudiates Lucifer (aka the Devil, Satan, Tyr, Amaruca, etc.) as the biggest loser in the universe and who has been utterly and completely defeated at the cross of Calvary through the shed blood of Jesus...and that Lucifer will be sent to the eternal fires of Hell where he rightly belongs. A comment along those lines would be a good start.

      But I would want to see him pinned down on the actual term "Lucifer" and a few other satanic aliases, just to cover the bases. Occultists are notorious for playing word games.

      Then TobyMac could start removing all the occult symbolism.

      Thanks for the good words, by the way. Keep me posted on the Facebook thing, if you like. I don't do Facebook at this point.

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    2. Today's FB update from Toby Mac on 7/28:

      TobyMac
      about an hour ago
      Come on ya'll :) My EYE remains on our Lord Jesus and the calling He has placed on my life. To build His Kingdom through my life and music. "Eye on it" is simply a phrase used to mean "stay focused on what really matters." To me, my relationship with Christ and the calling He has placed on my life is what matters to me and what I am trying to keep my eye on! In Love, Tmac



      I am just amazed at this because it all seems so "in your face", doesn't it? I mean, this eye symbolism is all over the place and getting worse, and then a Christian artist who knows what people think of it clearly doesn't care about all of that and puts it boldly out there almost to mock, it would seem. It's not like it's the first time he's been suspected of occult symbolism.

      What does the Bible say about keeping away from even the appearance of evil?

      Abstain from all appearance of evil. I Thess. 5:22

      Delete
    3. I agree with you. With no disrespect intended towards anyone...nevertheless, I have to state this frankly:

      Forging ahead with his arbitrarily concocted definition of satanic eye symbolism...is just plain obnoxious. And ridiculous. And illiterate.

      There isn't a good excuse on the face of the earth for utilizing satanic symbolism. Not to mention the gargantuan context Toby Mac has created with numerous other presentations of satanic symbolism on his previous CD covers.

      He might have a slim chance of arguing he has only "coincidentally" chosen a satanic symbol...if this were the first time. It ain't the first time.

      Also keep in mind--occultists' penchant for playing slippery word games. If a reference to the "Eye" is a reference to Lucifer...then "eye on it" means the Devil is 'on it' or 'on top of it'. In other words, he is seen to be predominant...towering above his enemies. Lucifer's enemy is the Lord God Almighty...a very, very poor choice of enemy.

      Thanks for the 'heads up'. I wish we had an army of folks to pile on to Toby Mac's Facebook...and force some real accountability. Alas...most of the believers are asleep.

      Delete
  7. You say this:
    "Notice the (Masonic) black and white checkered shirt."

    What do you think the black and white checker pattern (in shirts, on floors, or otherwise) alludes to in you're understanding of the Masonic/Satanic symbolism? What power does it give a mason? What is the symbolism saying?

    Curious, at what point does a checker pattern go from a simple design to something "Satanic"? An apple displays the sacred geometry of a pentagram, sounds like nature is Satanic.....maybe it is.

    Sure, it's ok to talk about eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a God-man, that's normal, celebrated and even sacred in the church...but heaven forbid (pun always intended) I walk out of the house with a checkered shirt on, that's just vile. Haha ;-)

    Communion is weird to outsiders, it's supposed to be...but when you're a Christian it speaks volumes that someone on the outside simply can't understand. Maybe you just need to go shopping at Old Navy and get a feel of what that flannel feels like against your skin.

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    1. OK, OK...calm down now. By the way--when did I give the "ok" to talk about "eating flesh and drinking blood"? I believe in no such thing. The communion exercise, where we eat a bit of cracker and a small sip of grape juice to commemorate Jesus' act of salvation...is that what you're referring to?

      Yes, I'm sure there are all kinds of mildly startling 'culture gaps' all over the place. Are we all supposed to ceaselessly apologize to each other's subcultures...because someone may not quite understand all the in's and out's of a particular way of life?

      Seems a bit silly..but by all means, begin apologizing to me for any potentially disconcerting aspects of your personal culture and choices. I'll be standing by. :)

      For example, I'm always a bit jolted when I see some young person who has pierced their earlobe with a 2 inch diameter pipe.

      But it would never occur to me, as it apparently has to you...to try to disrespect their subcultural orientation. I would hate to be mistaken (a concern you apparently do not share?) for being some sort of legalistic "church lady" (for you younger folks who don't get the reference, google "church lady, SNL").

      I'm a fundamentalist Bible-believing Christian...yet I have dozens and dozens of friends and acquaintances who are gay, bi-, tri-, tranny, pagan, pierced, tatted, you-name-it.

      So you may have pegged me incorrectly...just a tad. :)

      And no...to answer your (intentionally dumb?) question...one does not automatically become a satanist when one puts on a flannel shirt. But thanks for asking.

      But to answer your earlier and seemingly more serious question ("...at what point does a checker pattern go from a simple design to something Satanic?")...it's all about CONTEXT. Maybe you need to re-read the article? I went to great lengths to establish...context.

      When the guy has previously flashed numerous occult symbols...and is flashing the apparent "Lion's Paw" salute...one begins to theorize (not "conclude dogmatically") about the black and white symbolism.

      Here's a basic reality check: There ARE occultists in the world. Occultists DO display occult signalings and symbols. Hello? Your apparent position...that occult-symbol-flashing is something akin to belief in unicorns....uh, I don't get it. Sorry.

      And if the Devil has plagiarized designs in God's creation to create his symbols...it's quite illogical to say this is proof for satanism. What came first--the starfish or the pentagram? Come on now.

      Delete
    2. Let's establish context then. When you say occult, what do you mean? What is occult? You seem to imply "evil" into its definition, what makes you do that?

      As far as I can tell, "occult" simply means hidden or to hide, which is common to all the mysteries, even the mystery of Christianity. Jesus himself said he deliberately hides (we could say, occults) the mysteries of the Kingdom from people...have you ever considered why?

      I admire your passion for the truth and encourage you to keep digging, but remember, anybody can dig and find dirt, it takes skill to dig and find rare precious stones.

      Jesus is indeed the Logos and Light of God my friend and "they" thought he was a devil, so they crucified him. Jesus died on the cross for all, there's no longer a need to continue nailing more people to it.

      Perhaps start with taking Toby Mac and Michael W Smith off of it. It's a lot less work to set people free than it is to nail hands and feet and hoist them in the air to just watch them die slow, painful and gruesome deaths.

      The "fundamental" truth of the bible is freedom right?

      Delete
    3. Wait a minute--you left the reservation waaay back in your previous post when you theorized that God's creation is..."maybe satanic".

      You then dig the hole even deeper when you feign as though the definition for the word "occultism' isn't routinely settled among conservative orthodox Christians. To answer your (pardon my bluntness) fake question--among Bible-believers, "occultism" is routinely understood to be a reference to satanism.

      Yes, the root meaning of the word is "hidden" or "secret". It still doesn't change the simple fact that "occultism" is a commonly understood reference to satanism for conservative Christians.

      The fact that you're trying to create "uncertainty" about a common term like this is very, very odd. Combined with your open musings about God's creation being satanic...were you wanting to be mistaken for an occultist yourself? After all, who else would be open to the idea of God's creation being satanic?

      Sorry but...you lost me at "satanic".

      And the oddness continues...strangely patronizing comments, supposedly "encouraging" me to continue with my blog efforts, while in the very next sentence you say I am undertaking the "gruesome" task of "nailing" people to a cross. You need to figure out whether you're coming or going, no?

      And since you seem to be putting a fatherly arm around my shoulder...maybe you could advise me: If the Bible tells us (Jesus tells us) to be on the look-out for satanic wolves who will infiltrate the flock...how would you suggest we go about this? How strong would the evidence have to be before you would say--"Uh oh, I think this guy might be a wolf"??

      Here I'm thinking (dummy me!) if a guy has wallpapered his publications with hundreds of satanic symbols...maybe I should start a blog and warn some people about it?

      Maybe you have a better plan. I'm all ears. How many wolves have you spotted? The Bible has warned there will be these spectacularly concealed and disguised wolves among the flock. Jesus said a veritable army of these wolves will emerge in these last days.

      Go ahead and obey the Scripture's command to be on the look-out: Point out to us even a single well-known Christian leader who is widely believed to be genuine yet is satanic behind the scenes.

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    4. By the way--just a quick question: Do you renounce/denounce/repudiate Lucifer? Do you uphold Jesus as the great Victor who utterly defeated Lucifer (Tyr, Satan, and whatever other AKA he goes by) at the cross of Calvary...and that Lucifer is headed for the fires of Hell where he rightly belongs? Just wondering..after that "satanic" comment.

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    5. I am encouraging you to keep digging and looking (some call it "knocking"). I encourage your passion and dedication. However, I would discourage hitting people over the head with the shovel as you dig :-)

      Perhaps I would also recommend a good pair of protective glasses that would help keep dirt and other specks out of your eye as you look for the treasure so you can see clearly in your pursuit.

      Again, I remind you, the religious people of the day thought Jesus was Satan. It can get very complicated once you step outside the walls of your skin and try to analyze other people's hearts and intent. We each have a whole flock of sheep and a den of wolves in our own hearts we have to deal with. If you seek those out with the same intensity I think you'll find enough to keep you busy for a very long time (I know its kept me busy!). Now that would be an awesome blog idea!

      Let's not forget the truth "there is none else beside Him". We don't have to be scared.

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    6. Uh...what? Your comments are very oddly 'non sequitur'. And the patronizing style is just a bit silly, don't you think? Come on now.

      Again, once you opened the door to Satan in your initial comments, and pointedly expressed receptiveness to the idea that God's creation is "satanic"...your credibility obviously dropped to zero. Actually, below zero.

      So...I'm not sure what you think you're accomplishing here. You say you want to "encourage" me. But as someone who is, at the least, seriously contemplating the validity of satanism...I'll probably want to look for "encouragement" from other sources, if you don't mind.

      Meanwhile, if you ever want to lower yourself to the level of us mere mortals and answer some of the simple questions I posed, I'll be here.

      I'd be particularly interested in seeing you repudiate Lucifer and make it clear you share my desire to see him sent to a fiery eternal judgment.

      To me it is obvious you 'marked' yourself with the "satanic" remarks and a couple of other creepy expressions.

      Isn't it interesting that with some people's philosophies...they simply cannot speak straight and openly...cannot answer direct questions...have a need utilize double-talk...code talk...to veil...to misdirect. They simply cannot bring their views, their values, nor their beliefs out into the light of day...yet ironically, they claim to be the "illuminated" ones. Isn't that a pretty miserable existence? And no wonder the Lord God "sits in the heavens and laughs".

      Since we're "encouraging" each other...I'd encourage you to pull out of your "satanic" nosedive. You're headed for Solid Rock.

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    7. By mentioning that the apple reveals a pentagram was my quippy effort to show that nature is the origin of all these symbols. As man discovered these symbols and their mysteries they adopted them and worked with them in order to reveal the truths of creation and the Creator.

      Which is why I asked at the beginning...why is the checkered floor a symbol in masonry? What are some of the allusions? And at what point does it become evil? What does evil mean, what is the quality of evil? Because one man's evil is another man's victory.

      Do I repudiate Lucifer? I don't know what image of Lucifer you have in your head, but I can assume what it may be and to that I would say, yes. I don't like evil or manipulation any more than you do. I want freedom, love and acceptance.

      I imagine my understanding of Satan differs from yours just like my understanding of God, the bible and religion is different than yours, however, the language we use is the same. That's why it's better to go a little bit deeper and discuss the quality of these things...what are they at their essence?

      So, if we want to talk about Satan. We really can't because that one title means different things to different people. So then we go deeper, we may not agree on the actual specifics of Satan, but we can agree that Satan represents evil. That narrows things down a bit. Ok, so what's evil? Obviously me and you have different ideas of what evil is so we can't stop there. Lets go deeper. What does evil represent? Well, maybe a good start would be fear. Now I bet we can come to terms with that. I know I've been fearful before, and I bet you have too. No matter what makes up those fears, I bet we find that the FEELING of fear is the same for both you and I. And that's where we see each other as equals and actually talk about the real issues that exist right now and in this moment, not speculating on other individuals we will never know or have a chance to understand.

      This is why when the lawyer asked Jesus "Who is my neighbor?" Jesus never gave him the answer directly...he told him a STORY and then asked "Who was the neighbor to whom?", so that he could actually feel the revelation of the answer.

      Admittedly, I am playing around and having fun a bit, I probably shouldn't do that at your expense and I apologize. But if we continue to talk about what color tombs should be painted we'll just keep spinning our wheels. So I ask...what is the point? Who cares what pose Toby Mac is in today? Jesus wasn't emotionally wrapped up in the games Pharisees played, he had confidence in knowing that noone had control over his life (or any of his flock for that matter) that he didn't allow. He had purpose and his one mission was to complete the task at hand not get caught up by distractions...

      Ok full disclosure...I'm just projecting anyway haha. I feel like I can relate to you and what you're saying. I had a blog and wrote content in a similar vein. I had a shoebox full of "documents" detailing how satanic Masonry and everything else under the sun was. So, I get it...

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    8. OK so...you ARE luciferian. You only reject the "Lucifer" that exists in my twisted 'misinformed' thinking...but do not reject the real Lucifer..the actual person of Lucifer, who exists apart from 'Christian distortions'. Alrighty then.

      Don't know why it takes you guys forever to cough up simple information like this. Like I said, philosophies (such as yours, apparently) that have to twist and turn and wriggle and writhe and weasel and worm....oy vey, I'm getting worn out just thinking about it. Maybe you should lay down and take a nap after this?

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    9. I don't know what a luciferian is. I'm not positive I understand what the bible was talking about when it talks about the Morning Star. Consequently, I'm not entirely sure if I understand the intent of the gospel stories.

      The truth is, I'm a normal guy seeking for the truth of who I am and what I'm doing here. I have a family, a job, my primary goal is to love the Creator, love myself and love my neighbor. In my pursuit I've realized things aren't as black and white as I once perceived as a conservative christian. I don't think that makes me evil. I don't want anything different for you than I want for anybody else...peace, love and freedom. I personally don't care what you label that as.

      It's fun for me to discuss these things, I don't take them personally, I think it helps to encourage me to think outside of the box. I know God loves me and wants good things for me...and in knowing that, I know that God is a better Father than I am a son and he's not scared of my questions. So there really isn't anything to be afraid of, especially black and white tiled floors...

      I feel I've addressed your questions. Would you mind just answering one of mine? What does the checkered floor represent in masonry? What power does it give the mason? And what makes it evil?

      BTW...further disclosure...hahaha I am actually wearing a checkered shirt today, though it's black and dark gray.

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    10. OK so now you claim (in so many words) you've just been 'pranking'? For somebody who is now describing themselves as having no certainty about anything...you've certainly been dogmatically conclusive about how wrongful I supposedly am in pointing out wolves within the flock. How does that work?

      You now say you don't even "know what a luciferian is" yet you're rather vehemently opposed to anyone who objects to satanic signalings and symbols...things you're now claiming you have no understanding of? I don't get it.

      I'm finding it a bit difficult to buy into your latest incarnation as Mr. Universal Dumb Guy. For example, you say you were once a participant in mainstream "conservative Christianity"...yet you also say you have no clue what a luciferian is. OK...that claim is a bit dubious.

      I think a 10-year old with 6 months Sunday School experience could give a basic explanation of "luciferianism". A "luciferian" would be a guy who follows Lucifer. Lucifer is the 'bad guy' in the Bible. He's the one who does all the evil things. There are people in this world who follow Lucifer. They're luciferians. I think you're 'pranking' has continued into these latest posted comments of yours, maybe?

      Not sure what you want from me. You initially make comments which slyly suggest you're not opposed to Satan...and which you're now more or less admitting was intentionally obnoxious and discourteous on your part...as it was meant to trigger the alarm bells of a Bible-believer like myself. And so, after said alarm bells are triggered, you then ran away laughing...but later came back apologizing...yet with additional 'pranking' elements still observable in your latest comments?

      Assuming now that you WERE just 'pranking' with your handful of coy, tongue-in-cheek remarks..I think you therefore need to let me know when 'play time' is over. You're still making remarks to the effect that "whoops, I'm wearing a satanic checkered shirt...hahaha..lol". You're coming off as flip and glib...arrogant, basically.

      And now this "rabbi, I have a question" schtick?? 5 minutes ago (give or take) you're describing me as brutally, savagely "nailing" people to a cross...viciously hammering people over the head with a "shovel"...but all of a sudden I'm a fount of wisdom and you're sitting there with a notepad ready to catch my pearls of wisdom and insight?

      I think maybe you need a 'time-out'.

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    11. First of all, I'm not pranking, I'm serious but I'm not SO serious and I'm just having fun while Im doing it.

      I don't know what YOU mean by luciferian. I can say I boldly follow the bright morning star. But what does that mean to you? You could read it either way you wanted.

      This is why I keep asking you about the checkered floor...I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. I've asked quite a few times now with no response whatsoever. What does the checkered floor allude to? What power does it give a mason? What makes it evil? How do you determine if a check pattern is there for design or for evil?


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    12. Anonymous guy: " I can say I boldly follow the bright morning star."

      OK so...you ARE luciferian. Again, the circuitous-ness must wear you out. Have a seat. You're looking a little pale.

      Let's compare a couple of your quotes:

      #1-- "Admittedly, I am playing around and having fun a bit, I probably shouldn't do that at your expense and I apologize."

      #2-- "First of all, I'm not pranking..."

      Somewhere along the line, you've become confused, no?

      And you're getting pretty pointed about me not answering your questions. Howzabout you answer MY questions? You completely brushed aside an entire set of my comments where I have challenged you to show me how we should follow Jesus' instructions about keeping a look-out for satanic wolves who infiltrate God's "flock".

      You had issued these wildly judgmental 'church lady'-like indictments about me...that I'm crucifying folks and attacking them with shovels. So I asked you to advise me. All I got was the sound of crickets.

      I think the problem here is...either you're luciferian and wanting to play some games with me...OR, you're so willy-nilly all over the landscape when it comes to what you believe or don't believe...that it is really nigh unto impossible to have a conversation with you. For example, I ask you if you repudiate Lucifer. You come back with this silly "what is a Lucifer? Is it a vegetable, a mineral, a star...?"

      If you're truly a seeker...you need to go back to square one. You can start with the Intro and chapters 1 and 2 of my book "Wolves In Sheep's Clothing". The link is at the top of this page.

      You seem to barely be able to suppress giggling about all of this, to hear you describe yourself. Skip to my chapters 7 and 8 which detail the horrible evils of upper echelon satanists in America...then see if you still feel like coming back here and typing out "hahaha" and "lol".

      I don't get this whole thing about the intense interest in the checkering. Again, why would you want insights from me? You had already determined I'm merely some sort of ranting lunatic. You want me to explain Masonic symbolisms? Why wouldn't you just google for about 5 minutes? The topic is really too involved for this little comment forum.

      The black and white represents the split personality of satanists. They believe in having a evil side and a good side for the purpose of balance, so they don't lose their minds.

      Virtually all satanists/luciferians are split...dissociated. They believe they need this in order to not come unraveled...from the horrendous evils they engage in...satanic ritual abuse, wall-to-wall pedophilia, torture, murder, satan worship.

      Again, chapters 7 and 8...particularly 8...many details about these things...if you're truly interested. Read through it and get back to me...unless you're a "bold follower" of Lucifer.

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    13. Maybe it was just pure misfortune but,..there were 2 or 3 times where you seemed to utilize absolutely classic occult-style 'word games' which turned my alarm bells on. That and the very aggressive indictments about me "crucifying" and attacking people with shovels, when I'm merely trying to rescue kids (I've got two teenagers of my own) from what I clearly perceive to be satanic charlatans parading as "Christian"...it has made for a very stiff, blunt exchange between us.

      But the more you come back in the manner in which you have just now...the more I am of the mind that "oh well, occultist or not...if he would like to have a pleasant debate/discussion, fine by me".

      I'm not concluding you ARE an occultist but...like I said, you had made a few statements that were dead-ringers for many previous arguments coming from occultists with whom I've conversed. I suppose your attempts at "devil's advocacy" (inadvertent pun) could potentially explain why some of your comments seemed so occult-like.

      Anyway...absolutely...throw out any questions or topics you choose. I think for me..the first thing I would try to ascertain is...what exactly is your bedrock? What are your basic beliefs and/or non-beliefs...compared to mine?

      If, for example, you draw up well short of accepting the whole of the Bible in a literal, historical, grammatical fashion...then, we would have to start any discussion further back into the basic questions.

      For example, you seemed somehow to have obtained a confident belief that God loves you and that you should be fulfilling His standards in some form or fashion. By contrast, you seemed to feel quite free to all but dispose of the literal concept of Satan/Lucifer. Some issues to sort out there.

      It may seem for the moment that I have a 'dark perspective' when dealing directly with the matter of satanic wolves who are deliberately targeting young people. My "big picture" however...is absolutely and utterly fantastic:

      I am expecting the return of the King in the very near future (after a brief period of intense upheaval)...the end of the age of man and the beginning of the never-ending "age of God". A home in the New Jerusalem, per the Bible's promises...no more death, disease, pain, troubles, burdens, separations...surrounded by a sea of brothers and sisters, in the very presence of the King of Kings, the Lord Jesus Himself...on and on and on.

      But yes, I believe we are living on Planet Titanic for the moment. The world is going down for the count, and the Devil is closing in with his master plan...however brief his hey-day will turn out to be.

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    14. Awesome! I think we've hit a note of harmony here.

      I myself am a father of 2 (under the age of 10) and I only want good for them. I want them to live in a place of peace and freedom. It doesn't exist yet, but I want to do my part.

      You're right though, I could be considered an occultist (I am in fact a Mason - dont run away yet...I wouldnt consider myself a Luciferian or Satanist, because I don't worship satan. I'm for the good side.). But the problem is, we have 2 opposing definitions of what that means to each of us and what it implies, and I think that's where the real issue is, thats where the dialogue needs to be. Maybe a better, more palatable term would be an [amateur] esoteric...but I think Christianity is an esoteric mystery as well if we really look at it.

      God is wonderfully complex and massive, there is nothing else besides him as a matter of fact, all things work for and through Him. So we must be patient, considerate and gracious with one another as we try to figure out exactly what's really going on here. I don't think it's so black and white (pun intended) and set in stone (twofer).

      I no longer consider myself a traditional christian, however, I do believe I have a closer relationship with God than I ever had. The bible is more real to me now and His kingdom is more spectacular than I ever imagined. I used to be a street preacher and I would literally stand on sidewalks in front of gas stations and preach the gospel of the kingdom of God to people. I don't any more because my relationship with God has change and evolved...but I think that's supposed to happen. No person or relationship stays the same. Consider the change from OT to NT.

      So it's hard to judge correctly by these means (the internet) but it's much easier to judge, we must be patient with one another as we learn new ways to understand the heart and intent of the person on the other side of the screen. I'd be more than willing to speak very openly about what I believe and have a genuine discussion to see if there might be a common ground on which we could stand. I'm fairly confident that could be attained. (this comment thread may not be the most appropriate avenue though)

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    15. Ok so...for openers, do you believe in the literal existence of Lucifer and agree with the Bible's designation of him as the eptiome of evil? You seem to be relying on SOME kind of information from the Bible. Do you sort of pick and choose, in other words?

      The friendlier tone is certainly nice but (and I also say this in a friendlier tone) I have to insist that the way in which you are taught to communicate evasively, with the bobbing, weaving and dodging...is for me, inappropriate. You subject the other person with whom you are conversing, to consternation and alarm. This is coming from Freemason culture. All due respect, you folks have no moral authority nor appropriate grounds for the endless circuitous-ness and secrecy. Basically, it's just impolite...even though that seems not be your deliberate intention. It's just a side effect of Freemason business-as-usual.

      Regardless of what you believe is appropriate...it is NOT appropriate for Toby Mac to be secretly indicating secret, occult (and for me, satanic) allegiances. That is NOT acceptable in terms of orthodox Bible-based Christianity.

      The agenda of Freemasonry does not trump the agenda of the Lord Jesus. This is where I become frustrated with most Masons' utter lack of common sense discernment...that they will try to somehow argue it is OK for Toby Mac to covertly signal allegiances under the noses of the Christian teenagers who unaware of this.

      Mac is in fact HEADLINING his occult allegiances with his latest CD which features a gigantic Masonic/occultic/satanic all-seeing-eye...which takes up the whole cover of the CD. (Did you see my latest Toby Mac article?)

      If you're supposedly trying to get young people to uphold Jesus as their Lord and Savior and as the King of Kings...you don't "headline" some bizarre invisible allegiance. Again, the frustrating lack of common sense discernment from Freemasons...as to just how creepy, inappropriate and anti-biblical such behavior is.

      As I said, Freemasons (such as Toby Mac, apparently) have no appropriate grounds for covertness and secrecy...nor has any single, solitary rank-and-file Mason (such as yourself?) EVER been able to explain what actual purpose all of their secrecy serves.

      As far as the rank-and-file are concerned, the secrecy serves NO particular purpose...other than that it's "kind of fun". Oy vey. The rank-and-file Masons I have had conversations with, invariably concede (however indirectly) that's it's really just Dungeons-and-Dragons (or Pokemon)..for older people.

      You folks are of course HUGELY fond of pointing out Jesus' parables were not understood by some. But there was a specific and understandable purpose in that very narrowly defined scenario: If and when Jesus had discerned and foreknown his listeners would REJECT the truth...then, out of mercy, He veiled the truth so as not to worsen their future judgment.

      Freemasons can claim no such purpose...nor do they limit the veiled-ness to any such narrowly defined scenario...NOR (as I said) can any rank-and-file Masons actually EXPLAIN the purpose of Masonic secrecy.

      Mac's satanic symbol flashing is an utter violation of orthodox biblical principles...and an utter violation of the Bible's mandate to "avoid all appearance of evil".

      I don't know if you would try to deny this obvious reality but...for many people, occultism is the means by which they conceal hardcore satanism. Personally, I believe ALL occultism is at least an inadvertent participation in Luciferianism...and I don't see how anyone can miss the clues:

      If all the symbols and signals are the same..what's the difference?

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    16. Please understand this. I'm no taught to communicate in any particular way in Masonry. Also, don't allow me to speak on behalf of all of Masonry, I can only speak of my journey and my experience. I communicated like this when I was a Christian...it's just my style. And I do agree with you, sometimes it is insensitive, disrespectful and rude. Especially if you don't know me...and I don't know you. My intent in communicating in this way is to incite dialogue and thinking outside of the box. I figured you were capable of batting back and forth a bit by reading your article so I probably hit a little harder than I probably should have, at least initially ;-).

      I would love to answer all your questions, it helps me better understand myself and others. It's hard to figure out exactly which to address because you squeeze a lot in a reply, so if I can suggest, please try and make it clear, concise and to the point.

      I believe we must achieve a point of peace and unity rather than division (Im speaking of the world), and that's my goal, to do my part.

      Me and you are different, but there are aspects of us which are the same, and those are the qualities that we must speak to and communicate with. You may like chinese food and I like mexican, but we both enjoy the quality of eating our favorite food regardless of what it actually is in reality. I feel those are the points that we must accentuate and the surface "corporeal" manifestations need to decrease.

      So, again, you can ask me all the questions you want, but understand that's where I'm coming from and where I will always lead the conversation towards...what are we REALLY talking about here. That was why I brought up the pentagram in the apple. If a "Satanist" uses it for evil, yet it's a natural expression of nature...then what is the gap between the two? I ask myself, what is the significance of geometry? Why all these symbols? And in my journey I've found some very surprising [partial] answers. These answers actually bring unity rather than division, they instigate love, acceptance, and freedom, not fear.

      Are there ignorant dark people out there that hijack these truths...of course. Just like there are those that kill in the name of Jesus. We have to learn to look beyond the expression of these things and to the heart of where they come from and why. At least in my opinion.

      I hope that explains where I'm coming from a bit better and provides a little context. I can't address everything you said in your comment, because this is already running long, but I will answer your first question.

      Do I believe in a literal Lucifer?

      First of all, when I was playing loose with words earlier saying I follow the bright morning star I was alluding to the fact that Lucifer means morning star and Jesus refers to himself as morning star as well. So things aren't so black and white.

      I can't fully define what in fact I believe Satan to be...I can define the quality of what I believe he represents or is...and that is ultimately a resistance. A resistance to everything we know to perceive to be good...or God. I do not believe he's best represented as a singular superhuman evil being with a red tail.

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    17. OK well...bottom line, I'm following the Bible's instructions to be on the look-out for satanic wolf predators who infiltrate the "flock".

      Unfortunately, you're coming from a place very far off...where folks don't so much as distinguish between the word "Lucifer" and the word "Jesus", apparently?

      To claim you're not sure if Isaiah 14 may possibly be referring to the Lord Jesus...I mean, that's beyond ridiculous (pardon me)...starting with the fact that Lucifer's evils are being there described. Not to mention that he is actually named in the passage...Freemasonry's conveniently "creative" translations notwithstanding.

      Again, yes...this is classic occult belief and virtually indistinguishable from luciferianism. If Jesus is Lucifer and Lucifer is Jesus as you are suggesting...then why are you so coy about admitting luciferian allegiances?

      Again, you're disavowing any "training" from Freemasonry. OK, but...I don't know what to tell you---the circuitous-ness, the elliptical-ness...it's neverending. I'm just being frank.

      I certainly don't mind discussions but...you're so far off in a different belief world..that this is sort of like trying to explain the concept of "infiltrating satanists"...to an atheist. You think Bible believers are these silly people who believe the Devil has a "red tail" and that we believe we eat human flesh and drink blood for communion. No wonder you're 'chuckling' at my consternation over Toby Mac's ultra-creepy veiled/coded symbol flashing!

      You say there are "ignorant, dark people...who are hijacking the truth". Which "truth" is that exactly? I would say that after a while the argument fails. It's one thing to say people have done evil in the name of Christianity. It's quite another thing to argue "the bad Nazis ruined everything for the good Nazis".

      In other words, after seeing 4000 tons of evidence of the horrors and evils of occultism over the past ten years, I see no "good" side to occultism. You were hoping for common ground between biblical Christianity and occultism. Sorry but...there IS no common ground, from my information.

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    18. Just alone the fact that Masons cannot (or will not, as the case may be) explain the PURPOSE of their secrecy...it's "game over" from the standpoint of orthodox Christianity.

      "We're secretive but we're not going to tell you why". Uh...OK. Please cancel my Masonic membership, pronto! :(

      We have a veritable platoon of sneaky symbol-flashers who are slithering into the Christian community and into Christian music...and they are stealthily indicating secret, covert allegiances. The Bible warns of "wolves in sheep's clothing" who do such things...and I'm trying to give believers a 'heads-up'.

      If you are, as you say, more of a 'seeker' than a defender/backer of Freemasonry...in some kind of 're-evaluation' mode...by all means, read through some portions of my ebook...particularly chs.7,8,11 and 12. By the time you get through seeing the evidence of the horrors of upper echelon 'secret society' people...the "happy-happy sunshine" public relations image of Freemasonry is long, long gone. Don't know what else to tell you.

      This is, again, where I complain about a lack of common discernment among Masons I've talked to who are unable to provide a reason for Masonic secrecy:

      You folks should know better. I'll provide the answer I've never been able to get from any Mason: Human nature being what it is (tragically flawed and easily corrupted)...what other PURPOSE for secrecy, shadows, concealment, evasiveness, opaqueness...is there other than evil? I believe that to be common sense.

      Why, for example, do Michael W. Smith and Toby Mac sneak occult symbolism under the noses and behind the backs of their fans? For evil. What other purpose could there be?

      It is absolute evil for these guys to dishonestly sneak messages past their Christian audience. There is no wiggle room. The Bible is abundantly clear on this...from about a hundred different angles.

      By the way, leave TWO posts if you need the space. Time permitting, I'd really like to hear answers to the number of questions you haven't addressed.

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    19. Let's talk about secrecy for a few then. Again, I preface this with saying that this is my understanding and my opinion. I don't and cannot speak for Masonry, just of my limited experience.

      First of all I would say that in reality, the "secrets" of masonry aren't too secretive when you really consider it. First of all, I was a completely random guy off the street, I didn't even know a mason, just called my local lodge and chatted with the secretary there, did a short interview and all of the sudden I was accepted.

      They're not stingy with the "secrets", theres just a protocol...which is the point. I see it more as a protective concealment than the connotation of secrecy. It's the concept of not casting your pearls before the swine. It's a protection of the sacred from the profane and that's really one of the primary qualities of the secrecy.

      Obviously, the "secrets" aren't too secretive if you can find them all over the internet and in books everywhere. All the passwords and grips are but a quick google search away. Now think about this, if the passwords were of such great value to the secrecy of the fraternity, why haven't they ever been changed?! If masonry is legitimately trying to hold it's secrets, they do a pretty horrible job at it.

      So then what is going on here? I tell a new mason to not go online and look up everything while they're going through their journey (only a few months), not because I don't want them to know these things, but because there is an incredible value to going through the journey and feeling everything that goes on. It's beautiful, it's liturgy, it's symbolic, it speaks to the individual...right to their heart, where the true secrets are.

      See, the secrets are secrets because some are literally uncommunicable because there are no words to describe the feelings of the journey and pursuit of the Creator. The other aspect to the secrets are in respect to the concept of simply "finding the man of peace". Everybody's spiritual journey is unique and special to them, your path is not theirs and theirs is not yours. So it can be an offense to impose your journey onto them, it can actually cause more harm than good. Babies eat milk, men eat meat. You feed spiritual "meat" to a baby christian and it can do more harm than good.

      These concepts are very practical.

      The Kingdom of God has ALWAYS been concealed and always will be until the individual is ready to enter it. It's not concealed from people, it's concealed FOR them. You don't want people in the Kingdom that don't want to be there...frankly you CANT experience the Kingodm unless you do want to...Jesus specifically concealed the Kingdom of God, Paul openly talked about the "mysteries". The apostle Paul experienced the "3rd heaven" and "heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell"

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    20. Jesus wasn't concerned about getting as many people to believe him as possible. He simply spoke of the Kingdom and fulfilled his mission. If people didn't believe him, he moved on.

      The bible, especially the NT, is very esoteric in my opinion. We're just innoculated to it. We've heard the story too many times and we think we know it. These are the same mysteries that's been handed down from generation to generation for those that are ready to wake up and receive it.

      Consider this...after the ressurection the disciples of Jesus never recognized him off immediately. He was always "disguised" as something else. He didn't look the same as when he was crucified. They recognized Him because they were intimate with his essence, his quality, and thats how we recognize Him still to this day.

      We meet him in the clouds because the clouds are the only thing that can make us "forget" there is a sun shining...when we are above the clouds we have unrestricted light, free from the shadows that cause confusion.

      Sorry...hahahahaha..got a little loose there at the end. I just get excited at the possibilities and the greatness of God in all of creation.

      But, that's some of what I would say about the secrecy of Masonry :-)

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    21. OK so...I think I'm 0 for 20 in my attempts to get a Mason to actually explain a reasonable, understandable purpose for Masonic secrecy. :)

      You are basically saying--"Sure we have secrecy but it's no big deal..people can look all this stuff up on the Internet". That's not an answer regarding the secrecy culture of Freemasonry, IMHO.

      Then the "esoteric" argument...made no sense to me whatsoever. First of all, there is NOTHING esoteric about the Bible or the Gospel. It is the exact opposite. Jesus was born in a barn next to a cow and a donkey in order to send the unmistakable message...that Christianity is for the lowly, the not-so-great, the not-so-grand. The message is wide open to all the world and thrives principally among the poor and downtrodden...not the upper echelon 'beautiful people'.

      People will many times fail to understand the truth of God's word, NOT because it is esoteric and has been concealed in exclusivistic fashion...but because people are spiritually dead and blinded. Their own sinful conditon is the cause.

      You keep wrenching things out of context from the Bible in order to 'prove' Christianity has a similar exclusivism to Freemasonry. The isolated incident with Paul....is isolated. There is no culture of exclusivism and secrecy in the Bible.

      You talk about the "sacredness" of Freemason doctrines. Good grief---human beings have no ability or authority to devise "sacred" doctrines. Freemason doctrines are not sacred...certainly not for any Bible believer. Only God's Word which came through divine inspiration can be said to be holy.

      In any case, your explanations about needing to conceal for the sake of protection..and 'casting pearls'...makes no sense. Protecting from whom...for what...and why exactly?? I'm detecting no sense in it. And Freemason doctrine has no "pearls" to begin with. The "pearls" of the Scripture are a reference to God's truth...not humanly devised Masonic doctrines.

      Again, by all rights, Freemasonry should have nothing to hide. And you're not providing any reasonable answer as to why they nevertheless have a secrecy culture.

      The reason I challenge Masons as to their secrecy is because I believe we can easily see the real reasons for the secrecy---for the purpose of nefarious activities on the part of upper echelon Masons who are engaging in all manner of wrongdoing...Toby Mac as one example. Popular "Christian" author/lecturer Kay Arthur as another example (read Chapter Two)...and I could go on and on with examples of underhandedness from secret and/or 'upper echelon' Masons...unknown to rank-and-file Masons.

      A couple other observations: You wrongly claim that Jesus isn't concerned about get many converts. Flat wrong. The Bible says "God is not willing that ANY should perish"..."for God so loves the whole world...that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall..have everlasting life". Your attempts to claim "hey, the Bible is esoteric too" fail completely.

      The momentary failure to recognize Jesus after His resurrection...was momentary and was, again, an isolated incident which does not indicate an esoteric culture, nor a culture of secrecy. Please.

      Basically, you have argued--"Hey, Freemasonry has many important doctrinal secrets to keep." No, it does not. Certainly not from a biblical standpoint.

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  8. Black and white checkered shirt - Are you kidding me??? I own a shirt just like that. And if you ever go to any place at all, you will find that black and white checkers are a very common decorative element. Go to a freaking diner for God's sakes. 99% of the time the floor will look like that. Better not play chess or checkers either, because obviously if you do you will become a satanic spawn and be cast into hell.

    tobyMac Portable Sounds album cover - The picture is obviously not a pyramid, its a wireless/cell tower. Do a second of research for the love of god.

    Phallic tobymac poster - Yeah, I'm pretty sure every building looks like a phallic symbol to you.

    "emenating" rays - You obviously know NOTHING about graphic design, because this is an EXTREMELY, and I repeat EXTREMELY common design element.

    Arms that are bent like a masonic symbol - Yes Barnie. Arms bend like the masonic symbol. That's pretty much how arms are designed.

    Infinity symbol - Infiniti is a common mathematical symbol?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

    Please answer

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    1. Not sure what you're not understyanding about the simple fact that checkering is a well-known Masonic indicator. I never said every checkered shirt is satanic. A rather silly 'straw man' on your part, no?

      But yes, by deduction we can usually get a pretty solid idea as to when such checkering has Masonic significance...such as checkering on the floor at a Masonic lodge...or if Toby Mac is posing with a great big fat Masonic "Lion's Paw" salute, and is posing with a 'one-eye' presentation (for the hundredth time, by the way)....and has now placed a 5000 year-old all-seeing-eye satanic symbol smack on the cover of his latest CD.

      No dogmatism going on but...pretty common place, logical deduction. With the obvious Lion's Paw salute, I deduce that any other Masonic-like features are probably therefore intentional..the checkering, the eye thing, etc. And of course, for the Bible student...covert, coded, camouflaged signaling is almost certainly satanic.

      You're going to need to reconcile yourself to the biblical fact stated in point-blank fashion by the Lord Jesus Himself in the Olivet Discourse...

      ...that many satanic Christian leaders are emerging in these last days. These are people who are widely thought to be "Christian" but who are actually satanic behind the facade.

      If you don't like the evidence regardng Toby Mac...have you spotted a single one of these high level satanic "Christian" leaders? Name just one. Name one hugely popular Christian leader who is actually satanic...just as Jesus has said would be the case.

      If you study the Bible, particularly the Olivet Discourse, you will know that this platoon of satanic Christian leaders are used to lure the bulk of erstwhile Bible believers into an apostasy trap (which Jesus describes in great detail) who subsequently fall from the faith and split the gates of hell wide open.

      I'm just trying to give a heads-up.

      You're completely confused about the concept of modified occult symbolism. Look at the AOL corporate logo--it's a 'modified' eye/triangle satanic symbol.

      And no matter how many of these !!?? you type into your comments, the infinity symbol IS an occult symbol...along with, yes, being a mathematics symbol. Not sure how you think you can argue with simple, straight forward documented fact. By the way, are you saying Third Day is a group of mathematicians?

      The church world IS infiltrated with many, many wolves...just as is repeatedly warned of in the Bible and specifically warned of by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. You act as though I'm completely off-base with this. No, it's actually BIBLE-based.

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    2. If tobyMac truly is satanic, what part of his music has satanic influence? In my opinion, it's not enough to just speculate about questionable symbols or whatnot, it is actually better to judge an artist by his music. tobyMac definately does not put out trashy music. His music is uplifting, encouraging, profanity and sex free.

      Yes I do believe there are wolves in the fold. I don't see why me defending tobyMac says anything about my other beliefs regarding wolves in the fold. I personally don't listen to a lot of CCM but not because I believe it is bad. I just don't find the music very interesting.

      Of course most symbols originate from satanic sources, but I don't find your logic surrounding the infinity symbol very convincing. It certainly doesn't prove that anybody is satanic especially since it's becoming a widespread symbol in society originating from the math sign.

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    3. My "logic" regarding the infinity symbol?? It IS an occult symbol. It is what it is. They use the symbol on satanic Tarot cards and all over the place. There isn't even denial from occultists. (?)

      If somebody inadvertently displays an occult symbol just once, accidentally...no, that doesn't mean they're satanic. Again, you're setting up a straw man. If there is SYSTEMATIC and repeated usage of symbols, then would I begin to theorize they may be deliberately engaging in occult practice. Don't know why it is so hard to follow such logic.

      Toby Mac has a gigantic load of occult symbols and signals sprinkled throughout his published materials.

      And...if you actually believe there ARE these spectacularly concealed "wolves" among the top Christian leaders (as Jesus has explicitly warned)...then please, point out even ONE of these.

      If you don't like my theories about Toby...point out even one popular top Christian leader on the scene today who has fooled 99% of the Christian community and who is actually satanic behind the facade.

      You ask what part of his music is satanic. ILL-M-I doesn't count? You have some sort of elaborate, arbitrarily contrived defense which breezily dismisses the lyrics in which he presents a triumphant "Illuminati comin thru" and portrays himself as part and parcel to it's globalist violence:

      "if I miss with my missles you're still gonna sizzle
      'Cause I frizzle fry radiation style worldwide"

      You recommend judging him by his music. OK...I went through the lyrics of every song on his new CD. Absolutely Gospel-less. There isn't a snowball's chance any soul on earth is going to find the salavation of the Lord Jesus from this CD.

      And Toby has HUGE difficulty with the word "Jesus". He...just...can't...bring himself to discuss Jesus directly. One song has one mention of "Jesus"...but the phrasing is indecipherable, meaningless.

      When he refers to "God" (and even that is rare)...FYI, satanists refer to "God" all the time, but they're referring to their dark lord, Lucifer. I'm not claiming that dogmatically regarding Toby Mac. I'm just saying---the guy displays innumerable (dozens) of satanic symbols...and his lyrics, not just on this latest CD...are absolutely useless for bringing people under the lordship and the salvation of Jesus.

      All due respect (and I appreciate your relative civility), it just seems to me some of you guys are setting the bar so high that...unless Toby were to perform a public satanic ritual, sacrificing a goat onstage during a concert (or whatever), you're not going to theorize he may be a wolf.

      If you don't understand how wolves (per the Bible's definitions) work, I wrote an article about the whole Apostasy Plot scenario in which I attempt an explanation. I would recommend reading that...then get back to me if still interested. You're thinking he has to include "sex" in his lyrics and perrformances in order to indicate occultism? Come on.

      Toby's job (if he is indeed a wolf) is to be a Pied Piper...to guide people into a trap when a certain specific scenario emerges...a scenario which has been precisely predicted by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24)...and described and seemingly boasted of by Toby in his ILL-M-I song.

      By the way, the article I referred to is linked at the top of this page...and is entitled "The Central and Critical Purpose For My Book "Wolves In Sheep's Clothing".

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    4. I don't have to tell you what christian leaders I believe have evil intentions, even though at least 4 come to mind immediately.

      I honestly can't believe you hold the opinion that tobyMac's newest CD is gospel-less.

      The song Steal My Show is about tobyMac wanting God to take over his life. The song does mention God a few times, as if it wasn't already implied.

      The song Forgiveness is ALL about how sweet it is when we find forgiveness through Jesus (and yes it says Jesus).

      The song Speak Life is about how optimism is the first step to being a light in the darkness. No, its not the only step obviously. What's wrong with a few optimistic songs?

      The song Lose Myself is clearly about giving your life to God, just like Steal My Show.

      In the song Family tobyMac talks about one of the core essentials of christianity, family.

      In the song Thankful for You tobymac is thanking God for always being there during his music career.

      Favorite Song is about how God is always on toby's (and jamie grace's) mind.

      Anything wrong with these songs? Please don't pull the "saying God doesn't mean anything because satanists call their dark lord Lucifer God" thing. First of all, a lot of satanists don't even BELIEVE satan exists. He's just their mascot for a way of living that promotes anarchy and evil. Second of all, I don't think you're going about this right. You might have found 2 things that were suspicious, and after that you find 100 things wrong, which are pretty normal but you might as well think they are true because of the first 2 things. Once again, please find 1 NEGATIVE effect his newest album might have on someone, even though you find it theologically shallow. What music do you listen to, by the way?

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    5. I don't know if I can help you. This guy has put a gigantic satanic symbol smack on the cover of his CD...and provided these utterly silly disingenuous excuses for it. He had previously put this same satanic symbol on a DC Talk CD cover and didn't provide ANY excuse in that case. This guy is saluting Satan in broad daylight, in front of millions of people...and you're excusing it. That's kind of the 'end of the story' right there. Like I said--I think the guy could sacrifice a goat right onstage and you'd come back with "yes but he mentioned 'God' in one of his songs".

      Interestingly, you've brushed aside my explanations about luciferians using the word "God"...and have forged bravely ahead with a rosy analysis of Toby's lyrics, based on the fact that he mentions "God".


      I have no idea what you're trying to argue when you say "lots of satanists don't believe satan exists". Huh?? Where did you get that information? Yes, there are many Luciferians who play an obnoxious shell game in supposedly making a distinction between Lucifer and Satan...and they'll grandiosely dismiss "Satan" as a Christian concoction.

      But there IS a "Satan" and there ARE real satanists/luciferians and they're aaaall over the world. And Toby Mac has signaled (inadvertently or otherwise) that he is one of them.

      He is doing things that create an evil appearance of pledging allegiance to Lucifer/Satan. At the very, very least there is the "appearance of evil".

      Ironically, you're all over MY case when I'm merely responding to this...with a common sense response.

      There should be NO alarm over his satanic symbol?? There should be NO concern? It's inappropriate to point out the satanic symbols and signals spread all over Mac's published materials? Over and over, posing for photos so that the 'single eye' is presented? The utterly blatant "Lion's Paw" masonic/satanic salute. On and on.

      Have you gotten all over Toby Mac's case about his gigantic, in-your-face satanic "Eye if Ra" symbol on the cover of his new CD? Just curious.

      And why wouldn't you name these infinitely dangerous "wolves" you say you are aware of?? You see a wolf among unknowing, unaware sheep...yet you're not going to point it out and you're going to leave these sheep in mortal and eternal danger?

      AND....and...you're going to come over here and bust MY chops because I'M trying to warn of some of these things?? Bro...I don't get it.

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    6. Yes, I must've had an incomplete song list. I see there are three additional songs on this CD that I hadn't seen. And yes, the one song mentions "Jesus" but I can't help noticing it was the other guy (Lecrae) who made the mention in HIS lyrics. Toby...just...can't...bring himself to mention "Jesus" other than on the absolute rarest of occasions. What is his record by the way? Something like 178 to 3--the numbers of song lyrics that do or don't include the actual word "Jesus"?

      As I've said elsewhere in this comment section--It's not absolutely vital to luciferians to not mention "Jesus". Satanists will preach the Gospel and tell people to pray to Jesus for salvation...all day long. Toby Mac however, in my view, seems to be one of these occultists who has prided himself in almost zero mention of "Jesus". There are some who do and some who don't..mention "Jesus", depending on their role in the apostatizing process.

      I would argue you are simply not understanding how a biblically-defined "wolf" works. These guys can stand on the stage and read Bible passages and tell people to pray to Jesus...as long as they see the grand and final Apostasy Plot rolling down the tracks towards implementation.

      You need to read the article I previously mentioned, to get an understanding.

      I would repeat--there is ZERO Gospel to be found on this CD. Yes, there is lots of 'insider lingo' in the lyrics. There is a kind of 'fill-in-the-blanks' aspect to these lyrics. The "already-churched" kids know how to "interpret" these persistently vague, fuzzy lyrics...the way someone would interpret a Rohrshach inkblot. But the 'outsider', the unchurched...they're going to get zip/zilch from 'insider lingo. I know...because I read all the lyrics. There is NO Gospel presentation.

      So I read the last three song lyrics this morning (which I had previously missed somehow) and I would certainly argue that this one single cryptic reference to "bleeding forgiveness", devoid of context, devoid of any other references to enable making some kind of connection...keeps this CD's "Gospel-less" status intact. Seriously--there isn't a snowball's chance anyone is going to come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus.

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    7. Wait... you know that an outsider would be unable to interpret the lyrics... because you read the lyrics. Wow. That has to be one of the least intelligent things you've said this entire time. Dude, EVERYONE knows what Christianity is. Even if they don't know what's in the Bible, they know what we believe. You have no idea what an outside would feel about these songs, since you consider yourself to be an insider. Besides, you're making yourself sound arrogant, as though you alone know how to interpret lyrics.

      Let's discuss pagan/occult symbols for a moment, shall we? Firstly, the cross. That's a good place to start. The cross has been a pagan/occult symbol since it's creation in egypt, in the form of the ankh. Almost every western pagan culture has used the cross as a ritual symbol. So why are you all right with using the cross? It's occult, and therefore, by your logic, a sign of the illuminati - after all, it is everywhere/
      Next, how about the star of christmas or whatever the heck it's called? That symbol is also pagan/occult - it's very similar to designs used in geometric magic.
      The christmas tree is also pagan/occult. Druids and other pagan religions worship trees - where do you think the church got the christmas tree in the first place?
      The christian fish, which is EVERYWHERE these days, is a pagan/occult symbol from Babylon - it's a symbol of Dagon.
      And don't even try to say that it's different because these symbols are christian - they're pagan, and by your logic, occult. After all, pretty much every occult symbol used today is an integral part of almost every single freaking religion everywhere.
      My point being, pagan symbols are everywhere... deal with it. Pagan symbols have existed since cultures first began to develop, and they'll exist until the end of days.
      You're worried about TobyMac putting an eye on his album covers, or forming his hands in what you think is a satanic way (god forbid he steeple his hands - after all, that's satanic too). However, you're not worried that most if not all christian ritual symbols are pagan/occult in origin, and that they're used extensively throughout the christian world?

      A song doesn't have to be about the gospel to reach someone, or have spiritual worth. The gospel is the account of Jesus' life - mentioning the gospel story, or even mentioning Jesus' name, is not how you save someone. Telling the gospel story is not how you save someone.

      Also, since you're so enamored with the validity of google, why don't you google LaVeyan Satanists? They're the ones who believe in no deities at all, and merely serve the abstract idea of 'satan' (which, as I'm sure you know, since you are a bible scholar after all, is hebrew for 'adversary').

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    8. Furthermore, you worship on sunday. Let me make that clear - sunday. The day set aside to worship ra, mithros, helios, apollo, sol invictus, or any other sun god. The sun plays a huge part in occult rituals. But that's okay? Just as long as tobymac doesn't wear a checkered shirt and put his hand on his chest and *gasp* have one eye partially obscured by shadow??

      By your logic, all of your arguments about 'wolves in the fold' looking forward to the "Apostasy Plot" would mean that satanists (or 'luciferians', which may be one of the most inherently funny words ever) know when the end times will be, even though Christ himself said that no man would know the day of the coming of the Lord. Because, as you well know, the book of revelation makes it clear that the lord comes immediately after the "Apostasy Plot" begins.

      Let me make this abundantly clear - evil men cannot force God to return. None of their plots can cause Jesus to come out of the heavens. Jesus will return when paradise has been prepared for us, and when we (the children of Abraham) are ready, and not a moment soon or later.
      You looking furiously for signs of TEH ILLUMINATI won't help you at all. People have been trying to expose the masons and the illuminati and everyone else with 'deep dark secrets' for hundreds of years.

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    9. You say I "know" people won't receive the Gospel from Toby's lyrics? Uh yes...I do believe, in my opinion, people will not receive the Gospel from Toby's lyrics. We're BOTH delivering our views here in this discussion. For me to have an opinion...is "arrogant"?? I did not know that (as Johnny Carson used to say).

      And when YOU express an opinion, it is what? Divinely sanctified or something? We're both stating our views forcefully here. You need to calm down, maybe? I do not have divine inspiration but yes, I am conveying my views. In some cases, strongly-held views. So are you.

      And dude (I guess we're both presuming the other to be a rancher?), "everyone" does NOT know about salvation. People have been blinded. They have huge misconceptions. They have half truths and quarter truths and tenth truths. Your indirect assertion that Toby doesn't need to present the Gospel because everyone already has the truth and doesn't need to hear it anymore...wow, that's a jaw-dropper.

      It's right there in the Bible--the world is blinded to the truth and needs the supernatural intervention of God's Word empowered by the Holy Spirit.

      And another "wow"--your "discussion" of pagan symbols is way, way, way up the wrong tree. You've gotten the whole thing absolutely and perfectly...backwards. I do NOT back or endorse any "Christian" symbol anywhere on the face of the earth.

      I don't need or use any of these symbols you refer to. The "cross" symbol..."star" symbolism...the satanic yoni "fish" symbol. None of it. In my view, there are NO Bible-based, biblical Christians who endorse ANY symbols of ANY kind. The Bible prescribes ZERO symbols. Symbolism is the language of satanists.

      To whatever extent any symbolism has been injected into Christian culture, I would strongly suspect infiltrating wolf/occultists to be behind it. After all, the Bible explicitly and repeatedly warns of this infiltrating phenomenon...no matter how much sarcasm and sneering you deliver.

      And yes, many occult researchers would routinely point out that all these phallic "church steeples" have an obnoxious, pranksterish occult origin. The study of satanic symbolism incorporated into church architecture over the centuries...is a study unto itself. This is the Devil's world system, my friend (1John 5:19. You're going to see his marks of ownership all over the planet.

      By the way, the context of my comments here make it clear my references to the "Gospel" are not references to the entire 600 pages of accounts of Jesus' life on earth..as you so oddly try to misdirect. It is just a simple reference to the plan of salvation. I have simply been saying, there is no information in Mac's lyrics that would give anyone even the slightest idea about how to receive salvation and to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

      You strangely lecture me that "pagan symbols are everywhere...get used to it". OK. That's the entire theme of my 500 page e-book. Mama mia.

      1John 5:19 says all the world is temporarily held under the sway of the evil one. You think this is 'breaking news' for me?

      You refer to the "validity" of Google?? It's merely a search engine. (?) And...you think I haven't looked up LaVey in ten long years of researching satanism and satanic wolves...lol? I can certainly tell, you have only read the Reader's Digest version on LaVey. His son and numerous other eyewitnesses/survivors have long since come out with testimonies of LaVey's absolute hardcore satanic practitioning. Yes, I am well aware of the "Good Morning America with Ken and Barbie" version of Anton LaVey. His job was to be a distraction...a kind of public relations clown for his fellow satanists. Obviously, he succeeded in duping the general public.

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    10. Anyway...the LaVey scenario is neither here nor there as to the REALITY of a worldwide satanic movement, including an army of satanic wolves who have infiltrated the church, none of whom you can apparently identify.

      Interesting sarcasm regarding me being a "Bible scholar". There's an old rule of thumb out there that..."the individual who resorts to insult is sensing the weakness of his argument". Maybe that applies here?

      My so-called "argument" regarding (as you phrased it) "wolves in the fold looking forward to the Apostasy Plot"...is NOT an argument. It is a simple conveying of point-blank Scripture. Jesus stated directly (borrowing again from your phrasing) that "wolves in the fold are looking forward to the Apostasy Plot". Hello?

      You should step back and look at the illogic you are putting forward. You are claiming that Jesus' prediction about these wolves and their plot...creates a contradiction.

      Interestingly gratuitous sneering about the term "luciferian". A bit puzzling as to how you're deriving literal side-slapping humor. (?) That, along with the sarcastic, sneering reference to me as a "Bible scholar"...a developing pattern, perhaps?

      And you propose even more extreme illogic...in saying that satanists who are plotting an apostasy plot would therefore have to be credited with carefully conforming their plans to Scripture passages. Oy vey. What in the world?! Satanists care absolutely nothing about the prophecies of the Bible. No, they're simply doing their own thing...and God has perfectly predicted their actions.

      So therefore...your comments about "evil men cannot force the return of God", like so many of your other comments raises the question: Who in the world are you arguing with?? Who has said evil men are going to force God to return? Gooood grief, man.

      Your final statement which has almost a weird, disturbingly 'hopeful' aspect to it...that all my actions are futile...very, very strange stuff. Trying to point out these wolves is wrong? You didn't answer quite a few questions from my previous set of comments. I wouldn't want to either, if I were you. I already KNOW I'm not going to fill up arenas with people who want to listen to me. I'll leave the arenas to Toby.

      But you're dead wrong--I've been reaching people for ten years. I've had at least hundreds of folks thank me for opening their eyes to this deadly infiltration process which culminates in the apostasy plot which, according to you, was a huge mistake for Jesus to point out (??).

      By the way, the Bible does NOT "make it clear" that the Lord comes immediately "after the apostasy plot", in my understanding. According to the plain, simple words of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, the apostasy plot COMMENCES the time of "great tribulation" which is followed by the rapture/"gathering of the elect".

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    11. Satanists care nothing about the biblical prophecies? What in god's name is wrong with you?? That's it - I'm done being nice. I tried to be patient. I really did.

      First off, answer my points when I make 'em. You still haven't responded about the Sunday thing. Secondly, the rapture is a false belief - show me the scripture that says that all good fundies like you will be spirited away to heaven.

      You're not even quoting me right! (Good trick, by the way. Did you go to law school? That's an obvious lawyer move. I'm impressed.) I said it was arrogant for you to assume that you knew that an outsider couldn't understand what tobymac was saying. Furthermore, if the world is blinded to the truth, and only God can reveal it, then why in His Holy Name are you making such a freaking stink about this? If only god can reveal the truth, then what you or i or president obama do matters about as much as a cockroach's fart in a hurricane.

      And what the heck do you mean I said jesus "revealing the apostasy plot" was a mistake? I'd really like to know when I said that. You show me where i said that in this debate, and I'll take it back. I expect a direct quotation, cause otherwise, you're a pathetic lying dog.

      Duping the general public... I'm both offended and infuriated. You can't really support your arguments, so you insult me and those who agree with me. "The individual who resorts to insult is sensing the weakness of his argument," indeed.
      And where did I say you'd never reached anyone? I never said that. Believe me, I'm all too aware of how many people you've 'convinced' - way more than I like.

      And as for the Gospel issue, THE ONLY FREAKING PEOPLE WHO WOULD LISTEN TO TOBY MAC ARE CHRISTIANS WHO'VE ALREADY BEEN TAUGHT ABOUT THE GOSPEL. The world hates christian music. So you'd think that since TEH DEVUL (who is obviously God's equal - why else would you be scared of the whiny little rat who has to ask God's permission for everything) supposedly is brainwashing everyone, he'd use something that would allure everyone.

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    12. And that's another thing - you act like the devil actually has power over us. Dude (and let's not be pathetic with the rancher cracks), if you supposedly believe that God controls everything, why does the Devil worry you? Fearing him that much is basically a form of worship - blaming everything bad that you do on the devil's satanic luciferian whisperings in your pure little ear is saying the devil has way more power than he actually does.

      The theme of your book is "there's pagan symbols everywhere - get used to it"? See, that's not the impression I got AT ALL. (Yeah, I read some of it - come at me, bro) The impression I got was that you were trying to spread fear by repeating every pathetic conspiracy theory about the new world order that's ever existed. But I'm not an internet blog author, so I guess I'm wrong. (Yes, that's sarcasm.)

      And dude, 'luciferian' is funny because it sounds like one of the horde of church denominations rampaging throughout the world. It's not even a real word. Furthermore, I'm 'sneering' (not sure how you can sneer through the computer, but whatevs, yo) at the way you keep saying that 'bible scholars see this' and 'only someone who's a true bible scholar could see this' yada yada so on and so forth etc. etc. It just sounds conceited.

      Besides, you don't need to worry about a worldwide satanist movement - after all, before long, most people will be atheist. Although that would be like armageddon for your church or whatever it is that you attend, wouldn't it?

      So let me get this straight - you're one of the only true christians, because you don't agree with normal christian symbols? Wow - and i thought i was being conceited.

      And I'm arguing with you, bubba. You freaking out like a spastic epileptic chihuahua because you think tobymac MIGHT be satanist is where I get the feeling that you're a little worried that the baddies might win. Look - they'll reach who they reach. You have no bearing on that. If they don't get them through Grand Wizard Tobius Macsus of the COntemporary Order, they'll get 'em elsewhere. Nothing - and I repeat, NOTHING you can do will stop that. The world is in God's hands, bro. Sit back, live your own life right, and watch as he takes care of his own business.

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    13. Not sure what your uproar is about regarding "satanists not caring about bible prophecy". I was simply saying--satanists don't care about prophecy IN THE SENSE THAT...they're not trying to conform their plans and conspiracies to fit Bible prophecy...which is what I understood you to be implying. Satanists are indeed VERY interested in the Bible.

      As to the misunderstanding about your "arrogance" charges..I was simply pointing out the illogical double standard of claiming my opinions require "arrogance" but your opinions do not. And your straw man in claiming I "assume" that I know something. I "assume" nothing. I simply have views and opinions which are just as subject to fallibility as anyone else's.

      Yes, I believe it is reasonable to say outsiders will not be able to derive a Gospel message from Mac's lyrics. It's a viewpoint. (?)

      As to your comments which I argued had the (inadvertent) net effect of saying Jesus made a mistake...first of all, maybe we could hope there may have been honest misunderstanding before we, as theoretical brothers, begin referring to each other as "dogs"?

      Secondly, I can quote you--

      "'wolves in the fold' looking forward to the "Apostasy Plot" would mean that satanists... know when the end times will be, even though Christ himself said that no man would know the day of the coming of the Lord."

      I'm not a rocket scientist but...you appear to be saying (and I quote) "wolves...looking forward to the apostasy plot [the very exact thing which Jesus teaches in the Olivet Discourse] would mean that satanists know when the end times will be".

      Whoops--Jesus shouldn't have presented the idea that "wolves are looking forward to [and preparing and conspiring towards] their apostasy plot". I could swear you just said it because, uh...I just quoted it. (?)

      Again though, there may be a mis-communication here somehow?

      My view that the public was "duped" regarding LaVey is "insulting"? For a guy who uses the Christianized version of the F-bomb thirty-eight times in four minutes...you certainly have a hair trigger for taking offense and perceiving "insult". Yes, I believe you are wrong about LaVey and that the mainstream media has given out false, incomplete information about the guy. I've read the heart-breaking testimony of his son and other of his victims. Disagreeing with you is not an "offense". Good grief.

      I heartily agree with you...that Toby is only targeting the 'already-churched' crowd. I have said that previously, numerous times (elsewhere). That is exactly my point. My theory is that the purpose of Pied Pipers in the CCM world...is to cordon off the sheep and prepare them for the apostasy plot warned of in the Olivet Discourse.

      As you admit, CCM is a very in-grown world. An 'insider' world. For Christianized people only. You ask why the Devil isn't doing a better job of "luring" non-Christians into CCM for the purpose of "brainwashing", according to my 'dark theories' about CCM. Why bother to brainwash people who are ALREADY brainwashed?? Yes, I have some dark theories about CCM but...the lost are ALREADY headed for Hell. The mission is accomplished.

      You say I'm "worried that the baddies might win". I'm prayerfully concerned as opposed to "worried" or anxious. "Be anxious for nothing..." after all. Yes, I am concerned and am attempting to alert folks.

      I'm dumbfounded when you say "they'll reach who they reach" and "nothing you can do will stop them". Unbelievable coming from...a Bible believer, is it? Had you read the Scriptures about our role in saving the lost? I've won numerous people away from the kingdom of darkness. You even agreed with me. Now you're saying, the child of God has zero impact on anything. As far from the truth as you can get.

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    14. Michael: "Dude (and let's not be pathetic with the rancher cracks)..."

      OK, then how about referring to me politely..instead of in the manner of a thirteen-year old with a skateboard? Routine politeness is too much to ask? Between Christians?

      Your 'fearing the Devil" comments are a strawman but...knock yourself out. Any time anyone proposes resisting evil...this means they're fearful and quasi-worshipful of the Devil?? Alrighty then. Yes, I'm pointing out satanic symbolism in CCM and passing along Jesus' warnings in the Olivet Discourse. How terribly unbiblical of me!

      You say the whole world is going to become atheist? Uh, nooo..all the people of the world are going to become satanists when the Antichrist explodes onto the world scene...and the Bible describes how the whole world immediately follows after him and is required to worship him.

      Frankly, your comments seem to be disintegrating into aimless, pointless ranting...sarcastic swipes. This thing about atheism...I mean, it's borderline irrational, in terms of commonly known biblical truth.

      You say I must think I'm one of the only true Christians because of my position that the Bible prescribes zero symbolism? Seriously...what a ridiculous, obnoxious question. Yes, I have a view that there is ZERO biblical symbolism...that the Bible prescribes ZERO symbolism and that any foray into symbolism on the part of Christian people is risky at best...given what I think I have discovered about occult symbolism over the last ten years. Just my view. No, I do not believe I am one of the only true believers. YOU, my friend, are the one with the MASSIVE dogmatism. Food for thought, no?

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    15. You really love exaggerations, don't you?

      Look, dude, I'm not being impolite by calling you dude. Informal? Yes. Very much so. But it's hardly impolite- no more impolite than calling you "brother" or "man" or "pal". Besides, considering that I used to BE a skater, it should make sense that that's how I'm gonna talk. Sorry, but you'll have to get over it.

      Now, on to the matter at hand. Firstly, atheism. The Bible never says that people will become satanists. It says that they'll fall under the sway of the Beast - which could either be a man, or a nation, or a group of leaders. That can be achieved through atheism, too. And given the rate of growth of agnosticism and atheism, I think atheism is way more of a threat to the church than satanism. After all, even the most spiritually dead people know that satan is the enemy, and that only wackos worship him.

      Furthermore, regarding this 'apostasy plot', I've read the olivet discourse. Many times. I know what it says. I still say you're wrong, and that you're misquoting me. But maybe you're right. Maybe there was a misunderstanding.
      Moreover, I never said you were a lying dog. I said you would be a lying dog if you didn't show me exactly where I said that jesus revealing his prophecy was a mistake.

      Furthermore, the bible does contain some approved symbolism - I bring to the table the ark of the covenant, the stone tablets, that golden snake thingy moses used to cure the israelites, and the dove that descended from heaven during jesus' baptism.

      You know as well as I do that I never said we shouldn't resist evil. I firmly believe we should. I said that FEARING satan is basically worshipping him. Satan is not something to fear - he's under God's thumb. He can't touch you unless God wills it. That is my point about not trying to destroy evil. You can't. Only God can.

      And don't be foolish - of course we're to spread the message. But once we've spread it, we need to drop it and let God work on people. None of the disciples hammered on people to believe Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus didn't force people to believe in him. He spoke his words, and God did the rest. You want to know how to draw people in? Ignore their faults. Treat them like people, instead of infidels or unbelievers. That's what we're commanded to do - we're not commanded to force our religion down people's throats.

      And in regards to Toby Mac, show me two actual, valid ways - just two - that Toby Mac has lured someone away from Jesus into following Satan, and I will take back everything I said defending him. And I mean, valid. I don't mean tell me again that he doesn't talk about the gospel at all, or something like that.
      Also, on that note, please stop bringing up the whole goat-sacrifice thing. It doesn't even make sense - the israelites sacrificed goats, too. Satanists aren't the only ones who utilize animal sacrifice.

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    16. And you are well aware why I was insulted by your comment, dude - when you say, "obviously, he succeeded in duping the general public" in DIRECT reply to the statement I made concerning LaVeyan satanism, that is clearly a poorly-concealed insult about my naivety. That said, I probably shouldn't have gotten so angry about it. I apologize for my anger.

      We can't save the lost if they're blind. Trust me, I've tried - some very close family members of mine are what I would consider lost. That said, I'm not going to keep trying to force them to see the light, like you've done in a somewhat kinder way with your... I'm not going to say followers, because that makes it sound like you have a cult... let's just say, with those you've 'saved'. Those family members of mine just won't listen - God is the only one who can reach them.
      Listen, dude, believe it or not, I really do have a lot of respect for you and your beliefs. I disagree with what you're saying, and I'll try for a while to convince you that I'm right, but I'm not trying to be disrespectful of what you believe.
      That said, I don't think you've really "saved people from darkness". I think you may have just struck a chord with people who believe like you do, and who were looking for a second witness. I think you gently indoctrinated some people. But I don't think you really saved anyone - that is arrogance, whether you meant it that way or not. However, I will maintain the possibility that I am 100% wrong, and that you are actually doing the Lord's work.

      And I am a bible believer, yes. I read the bible literally, which is why I don't believe in the antichrist, or the rapture, or a grand satanist plot. Apostasy doesn't have to mean converting to satanism, or even incorporating satanic rituals into Christianity.
      What I do believe is that satan's work is done for now, and we're making a much bigger mess of things than satan ever could. I do believe that there's more important things to do than worry about the future. I believe that you (not you, personally) can't force someone to believe like you, because it's meaningless.

      (By the way, on a completely separate note, what denomination - if any - do you belong to? I'm curious.)

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    17. You: "Yes, I have a view that there is ZERO biblical symbolism...that the Bible prescribes ZERO symbolism and that any foray into symbolism on the part of Christian people is risky at best...given what I think I have discovered about occult symbolism over the last ten years." "I don't need or use any of these symbols you refer to. The "cross" symbol..."star" symbolism...the satanic yoni "fish" symbol. None of it. In my view, there are NO Bible-based, biblical Christians who endorse ANY symbols of ANY kind. The Bible prescribes ZERO symbols. Symbolism is the language of satanists."

      You believe the bible has ZERO symbolism? Wow. You completely just lost any respect I had for your biblical knowledge. The bible itself (the old testament anyway) was written in paleo-hebrew, a picture language similar to the Egyptian way of writing. In fact, YHWH wrote the ten commandments in this symbol language with his own freaking finger.

      "Yes, I must've had an incomplete song list. I see there are three additional songs on this CD that I hadn't seen. And yes, the one song mentions "Jesus" but I can't help noticing it was the other guy (Lecrae) who made the mention in HIS lyrics. Toby...just...can't...bring himself to mention "Jesus" other than on the absolute rarest of occasions. What is his record by the way? Something like 178 to 3--the numbers of song lyrics that do or don't include the actual word "Jesus"? "

      Dude....good lord. You publish an internet article claiming tobymac is a satanic wolf who never mentions God in his songs and you didn't even read all the lyrics of his songs? Sounds like someone needs to do a second of research. And tobyMac can't bring himself to mention Jesus? Have you ever heard of "Jesus Freak?"

      "I'm dumbfounded when you say "they'll reach who they reach" and "nothing you can do will stop them". Unbelievable coming from...a Bible believer, is it? Had you read the Scriptures about our role in saving the lost? I've won numerous people away from the kingdom of darkness. You even agreed with me. Now you're saying, the child of God has zero impact on anything. As far from the truth as you can get."

      That's not at all what Michael said. First of all, I find it very self righteous of you to be boasting about how many people you have "saved." Tell me, were these people Christians before or not? I find it hard to believe anyone but a christian or an atheist looking for hilarious material would stumble across this website.

      Second of all, Michael was not discouraging evangelism. He was simply bringing up a fairly common Jewish belief - that there will always be wolves and there will always be people who don't give in to the wolves.

      "Interestingly, you've brushed aside my explanations about luciferians using the word "God"...and have forged bravely ahead with a rosy analysis of Toby's lyrics, based on the fact that he mentions "God". "

      It was you, sir, that said toby rarely mentions God. It is YOU, sir who was proven wrong about toby's mentions of God and who is pulling up the "which God?" excuse. Not sure I can prove anything to you if you don't play by your own rules.

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    18. To "Michael"--

      A willingness to call someone a "lying dog" is completely unacceptable between Christians. And I never SAID you "said" I was a lying dog. That's a twist. I simply asked if there might not be an alternative approach.

      You referred to me as a psychotic "chihuahua"...so there's that. Your denial about the abrasiveness of the term "dude" when used during a pointed debate is quite dubious. Between Christians, if a guy says "hey, I'm not happy with you calling these names" and you respond with "dude, dude, dude" such as you did...where's the charitable Christianity in that? I'm asking you to stop calling me names.

      Your ideas about worldwide atheism...don't know of anyone who holds such a view. The Scriptures are clear about a worldwide satanic "worship" movement in the end times.

      Rev. 13:15,16 -- "...all who refused to WORSHIP the image to be killed. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads..."

      Atheists don't "worship". The Book of Revelation directly contradicts your idea of worldwide atheism.

      You say I'm "wrong" about the Olivet Discourse. Wrong where? I've done not much more than simply quote the passage. Satanic Christian leaders come forth to lure Christ-followers into a trap. Jesus says to be on the look-out for these satanic wolves. What's to debate?

      Who are YOU warning regarding these emerging satanic "false prophets"...and who ARE some of these satanists...if I am supposedly so far off in my concerns about CCM artists who have ten-foot tall satanic symbols on their CD covers??

      You admonish me--"don't be foolish". It wasn't MY foolishness. I was quoting your comments about the uselessness of trying save folks from the Devil. NOW you've reversed your position. I have no idea what is going on with the reversible positions.

      You say "once we spread it, we drop it". What in the world does that mean? It's meaningless. I spread the Gospel virtually every day of my life. Why would I "drop it"? I will continue to warn people about someone like Toby Mac (I've got a tentative Part 3 and Part 4 coming out) with his obstinate willingness to perpetrate "appearances of evil". Toby isn't quitting. Why should I quit??

      You talk about the Bible's alleged "approved symbolism"? The ark was an actual ark, an actual object...not a symbol. The snake statuette was an actual statuette. It was never proposed as a symbol for God's followers. It was used for a brief time, then presumably thrown in a dumpster. The "dove" of Luke 3:22 was never presented as a "symbol".

      By the way, if I am aware these other symbols you previously mentioned are occult/pagan based (as you obviously agree)...why would you accuse me of spiritual arrogance...only because I reasonably and understandably have an aversion to the idea of pagan symbols being used to supposedly represent Christianity?? First, you notified me I was in error if I SUPPORT pagan Christian symbolism (which it turned out, I didn't) and if I REJECT pagan symbolism, I am supposedly STILL error. Are you coming or going?

      I have no denomination. Technically, I could be called fundamentalist...as I hold to the historical "five fundamentals of the faith". But I have hung out in many of the typically 'hip' Evangelical churches and attend such a church now. I am emphatically non-Charismatic and hold to a simple, straight-forward interp of the Olivet Discourse in which Jesus plainly describes a rapture/"gathering of the elect" which occurs "after the great tribulation"
      (Matthew 24:29,31)...FYI.

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    19. To Michael again--

      Once again you're asking me for evidence of Toby's satanic allegiances.

      I've already attempted to explain to you how I think this "false prophet"/"satanic Christian leader" scenario works with regard to Toby Mac, if we're to theorize he may be a part of that. Again, you seem to be demanding a simplistic answer...as though I need to be able to point to something blatantly satanic that he is doing.

      You'll have to forgive me but that's an amazing request to someone like myself,...given Toby's fifteen foot satanic symbol plastered on all 10 million of his CDs in Walmarts throughout the land.

      According to Jesus in the Olivet Discourse...the goal of a satanic wolf is to develop a huge credibility over time so that when moment arrives to literally direct church-goers to "desert places"...to literally climb onto the FEMA trains to be taken to the FEMA death camps (er, "relocation camps") these wolves will have that much credibility.

      People ask me how and why such an unusual scenario might develop. It seems plain to me, given Jesus' comments in the Olivet Discourse...this "emergency" occurs at the time of the (so-called in the Discourse) "abomination of desolation".

      This is almost universally understood to be the explosive emergence of the Antichrist (in the "holy place" in Jerusalem) and what many now equate with the coming "New World Order".

      Millions of PreTribbers will be panic-stricken as they had assumed they would be "raptured" by now. The world will be ready to turn on all these hesitating church-goers who are balking at signing up for the New World Order and the mark of the beast...because, as the Rev.13:3 indicates, "all the world was amazed and immediately followed after the beast". Christian hold-outs will come under extreme contempt and hatred from the world.

      The satanic wolves/false-prophets (would this include Michael Smith, Toby Mac, Pat Robertson, Rick Warren and hundreds of others?) will step forward with a false offer of safety at "desert locations" exactly the description of all these hundreds of so-called "FEMA relocation camps".

      The job of these 'false prophets" currently, IMO...is to cordon off the "sheeple". Create a comfy "happy bubble"...keep folks hypnotized and sedated in a cozy ingrown, insider, exclusivistic "Christianized" context...nice and sleepy and completely unprepared and unwarned regarding the tsunami shockwave of the Antichrist's explosive emergence on the world scene.

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    20. To "Anonymous" September 4, 2012 3:20 PM

      Somehow you're badly mixing the issues. I'm not sure if you know what you're talking about but...Hebrew letters are still just that....letters. Regardless of whether they have a 'symbol' origin, they've now been converted into letters for use in the Hebrew alphabet.

      In the case of the Hebrew language, the Bible is NOT presribing or endorsing the use of any symbolism. It is simply utilizing the Hebrew alphabet which (assuming your correct) was derived out of various symbols. The "symbols" are no longer being presented as symbols. They're being presented and utilized as letters. Good grief--how have you mixed this up?

      I also don't understand the level of consternation. Oy vey. This other guy was trying to foist satanic symbols on Christianity. Maybe you should get consternated with him!

      And oh my...again, your near heart attack over my discovery of the three other songs. It took a mere 24 hours to correct. The Toby Mac people had put out a tentative song list to which they later added the three songs. Over night, the extra songs were discovered, problem solved. Talk about desperately reaching to manufacture a scandal. Ridiculous.

      And you say you find me "very self-righteous"? Oh, brother.

      That's quite the 'ability' you have --reading into someone's heart and mind. I'm merely reporting there seem to be numbers of people who have credited my Internet ministry for helping them unravel and thus dodge the deadly deceptions of these last days which, according to Jesus, are going to lure the majority of conservative Bible church attenders straight through the gates of Hell.

      I can't testify about the progress of my ministry...apart from 'spiritual pride'?? A ministry which I repeatedly and often refer to as..."tiny", "teensy", "pip-squeak", etc. You've never heard of a Christian ministry which routinely attempts to chart and report it's progress? I am unable to keep up with your conspiracy theories.

      And again, the utterly strange, unprovoked seething and antagonism...what IS your problem, my friend? You have quite the hair trigger for passing judgment on someone, no?

      Lastly, with your comments about the mention of "God"...you oddly contradict yourself by first reporting (accurately) my statement that Toby "RARELY" mentions God...then claiming that ANY mention of God disproves my claim that he RARELY mentions of God. What in the world?

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    21. Obviously you have no idea what I mean by "paleo-hebrew". In ancient times an alphabet made up of symbols is much more than just symbols-converted-to-letters. The symbols REPRESENTED OBJECTS. For example, the letter yohd represented a clenched fist. The letter tahv represented a door. For someone so staunchly against symbolism of any kind, I find your acceptance of alphabet symbols interesting.

      You're accusing ME of desperately reaching to manufacture a scandel? I couldn't of described you better. Staring at a Michael W. Smith album cover for an hour searching for ANY symbol whatsoever or rooting through corporate logos which could resemble an eye AT ALL is called desperately reaching to manufacture a scandel. And on your point, I have had the official list for tobymac's album for a long time. This seems to be a lack of research on your part, especially since you should be an expert on tobymac if you are going to be claiming he's a satanic wolf.

      No no no, you misunderstood what I said regarding t-mac's mentions of God in his songs. Here's what happened-

      You said tobymac rarely mentions God and never, ever goes anywhere near the gospel.

      I replied with a list of his songs just from his new album that talk about God and salvation (the gospel).

      You claim that tobymac might be referring to "lucifer" when he says god, thus rendering my argument moot.

      That isn't fair.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      I want to read your reply but this will probably be my last comment. A word of advice from me tho is -You aren't really going to reach the lost with your message. Symbolism is a small, tiny speck of dust in the grand scheme of things and if I were you I wouldn't waste my life over it.

      God Bless.

      ~Anonymous

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    22. I agree with Anonymous. I have nothing to gain from this conversation, since you refuse to use logic or listen to my arguments, and have repeated all of your arguments many times over. I'm done.

      I sincerely hope you are actually doing God's work in all of this, or at least that making these accusations and conspiratorial statements gives you peace in some way.

      For what it's worth, I've actually enjoyed our debate. It's been interesting, and you remain one of the few people I've argued with who hasn't resorted to swearing to make points. That's a little refreshing.

      In any case, I wish you the best.

      God bless you and your family, sir.
      -Michael-

      P.S. You're probably right - it probably was rude of me to continue calling you dude even after you expressed distaste at the word. I apologize if I offended you.

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    23. To "Anonymous" of September 4, 2012 7:05 PM

      Your arguments haven't touched my arguments. It doesn't MATTER if these were previously "symbols". They're now being used as letters. I don't even know what you're arguing about anyway.

      I repeat my original assertion -- the Bible prescribes no symbolism. That statement doesn't even TOUCH on the issue of Hebrew letters having originated from symbols. I have no clue what you're having a fit over. I was trying to defend against the idea that genuine Christians have adopted all manner of satanic/pagan symbolism. Why aren't you defending me?? Why aren't you siding with me?? Your Hebrew alphabet issue has absolutely zilch to do with the topic at hand. Goood grief!

      And yes you ARE "desperately manufacturing" controversy. It is absolutely the silliest thing ever. A tiny momentary misunderstanding..solved literally overnight. I clicked on the wrong link. Your 'indignant', judgmental harrumphing is nothing short of bizarre.

      And your ridiculing, broadbrushing remarks about Michael Smith's satanic symbolism. Was there an actual argument in there? Or were you merely making a bee-line for insult and ridicule, o Christian brother?

      God forbid you have any disagreements with a brother at your church in the foyer after a Sunday service. I hope you at least take it out to the parking lot.

      You say it's "not fair" for me to point out how luciferians are referring to their dark lord Lucifer when they use the word "God". I......don't get it. it's not "fair"? OK but...luciferians DO refer to Lucifer as "God". Don't know what else to tell you.

      Boy, wouldn't it be nice if someday Toby would come out with some lyrics that were equivalent to "I uphold Jesus as my Lord and my Savior...the King of Kings, Lord of Lords. He has brought Lucifer down to defeat. He will send Lucifer to a fiery judgment, just as he deserves." Something like that.

      Even if we had to compile such expressions from a wide assortment of Toby's song lyrics...that would still be fine by me. Unfortunately...he's never made anything within a million miles of such definitive statements of allegiance.

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  9. Uh, I kinda agree with Anonymous Bro right above me ^^^ - the rage guy.

    Most of this is kinda obviously just looking for problems - which I believe is kinda spoken of badly in the Bible. Of course, I'm no bible scholar.

    Besides, everyone (and i mean EVERYONE) does the hiding the one eye thing ALL THE TIME. If the only people who do that are Illuminati pawns, that means we're all kinda hosed, brosefs.

    Also, ''illuminati'' just means "enlightened" - the same way masons are people who work with stone. They're just words that have been adopted by organizations. Big whoop.

    Rly, I think this is just yet another attempt at being spiritually discerning without actually possessing spiritual discernment.

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    Replies
    1. No, it isn't "everyone and I mean every one" who is flashing the single eye thingy. But there are a LOT of folks doing it. And it IS an occult indicator. The world system is predominated by the "spirit of this world", i.e. the Devil. So you ARE going to see indications of allegiance to him. He has his followers.

      You realy need to read up a bit more...when you claim the term "Illuminati" (with capital "I") merely has a direct literal meaning of "enlightenment". Come on now.

      According to Scripture, the Devil is taking over the world, however briefly he may achieve this. He has an organized Antichrist cabal that is bringing this about...whether we refer to them as a "cabal...a "satanic crime syndicate"..."the Illuminati"...whatever.

      Jesus (in Matt.24) describes how part of this cabal, the satanic "Christian" division, are going to execute a very carefully planned "apostasy plot"...designed to cause the majority of conservative church-goers to fall away into apostasy and eternal doom. Some of you folks need to wake up and smell the coffee. The world of CCM (contemporary Christian music) is not a big Disneyland. It is one of Satan's prime trargets. How could any Bible student fail to realize that? How could believers fail to have at least the basic intuitive realization--"Hey, there MUST be some bad guys in CCM" ??

      But nope, all these hundreds of thousands of Christian young people partying on like all the world is nothing but a great big "happy happy bubble". A huge tragedy in the making...just as Jesus has explicitly forewarned.

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    2. Illuminati - latin, lit. 'enlightened'

      And no, scripture does not say that the Devil is taking over the world. It says that he's the prince of the earth - as in, he's ruled the earth for a lot longer than we been alive, bro.

      I think you need to read MAtt. 24 a little more carefully. It says that false prophets will lead people away - false prophets, by biblical definition in the old (and new) testaments, are men and women who encourage people to rebel against god, and forsake his teachings, and who prophesy things that don't come to pass. As of right now, I can't think of any contemporary christian artists who are doing any of those things.

      However, I can think of people (namely, yourself) who are falsely accusing christian artists of satanic allegiance. False accusations are an abomination, as I recall - something in the ten commandments about not bearing false witness against thy neighbor or something like that. In my book, accusing someone falsely of having satanic allegiances is a cruel and petty attempt to feel better about your own weak walk with God.
      We all have satanic allegiances, bro. Every time you break God's laws, you're waving the satanic flag.

      Incidentally, I'm curious as to why you never use Old Testament verses to make points. You only use the New Testament. It's intriguing.

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    3. Ok, I'm a little confused as to who is who here. Did you step into the other discussion, or something? No problem...I was just assuming your comments there were his 'response' comments.

      Anyway...were you the one making the argument about "worship on Sunday"? Hopefully, I "worship" all seven days of the week. There IS no "day" of worship. Anyone can "worship" any day they want. Many churches have meetings 4 or 5 days of the week. The early church met on Sundays because that was the day many people were already observing religious (pagan, as you say) practices.

      I'm not sure what you think your argument is here. Pagans have no power nor authority to declare Sunday as a "pagan" day. All 7 days of the week are assigned by the Lord God.

      You are incorrect about the word "Illuminati". First of all, you have capitalized it. Therefore it is a noun...not a verb or adverb. Secondly, the capitalization would indicate it refers to a specific, identifiable group...as opposed to mere random "illuminated ones".

      Thirdly, the word is in the plural form. "Illuminati" refers to two or more members of this specific group.

      When Toby Mac refers to the "Illuminati"...that is a specific, identifiable group. Many, many ex-satanists routinely testify to the "Illuminati" being alive and well...and by their descriptions, this group perfectly fits the biblical descriptions of the Antichrist cabal.

      When Toby uses the capitalized word "Illuminati", your arguments about this being simply a generic reference to "enlightenment"...come on. Toby even goes on to describe the details of the Antichrist cabal's (the Illuminati's) geopolitical aggressions.

      You say the Devil is "the prince of the earth"? Actually, it says he is the "prince and power of the air".

      I'm not sure what you're not understanding about basic Bible teachings but...yes, the whole world is under satanic domination. And yet, at the same time, there is a very specific satanic geopolitical religious movement ongoing.

      A world domination process which results (however briefly) in the whole world worshipping at Lucifer's and his Antichrist's feet. The Devil has not yet achieved that. This is his supreme goal.

      You say you don't spot any false-prophet/wolves on the scene today. I thought you said you knew about four of them?

      In any case, your assertion is flabbergasting. You literally know of not a single "Christian" leader who is mis-teaching and mis-guiding people towards apostasy and thus, doom?

      If you can't spot any wolves in CCM and elswhere sprinkled throughout the flock...it's because your observation powers are off. The Bible flatly declares the reality of "wolves in sheep's clothing" as an ongoing phenomenon throughout the centuries of the church. Spectacularly deceptive, ingeniously disguised satanists who have infiltrated the flock.

      You're trying to set up a quite silly, sawed-off scenario...where any "false prophets" are required to teach blatantly satanic doctrines (such as sacrificing goats, or something?) in order for us to say "oh, there's a false prophet". I don't think even you believe your own nonsense, to be quite frank.

      These false prophets are spectacularly deceptive, in as much as it is clear from the Olivet Discourse text that the huge and vast majority of Bible-believers are fooled into thinking these are genuine Christians.

      They are not going to get up there and say (as you are pretty much ridiculously suggesting: "Worship Satan! Hail Satan!"

      Jesus indicates their deceptiveness is so skilled that they are able to lure the majority of church-goers out to "desert places" and "inner rooms".

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    4. Millions of conservative Christians (erstwhile Bible believers) who expected to be "raptured before all the bad stuff happens" will be in a state of utter panic and these satanic "Christian" leaders step in with false comfort and deadly directions to this pre-arranged apostasy trap, set up in remote locations. Once in isolation, the boom will be lowered--"Join the New World Order, take the mark of the beast...or go to the deepest dungeons."

      Jesus foretells that the majority will capitulate and split the gates of Hell wide open.

      Your accusation that I am flatly "accusing" people of being satanists is, itself, a lie. And now YOU have become the false accuser. Throughout ALL of my comments I am always careful to measure my words. By the time one gets through reading my comments about Toby Mac...yes, admittedly, it does NOT look good for Toby.

      But I am simply saying--Toby Mac has displayed numerous satanic symbols. He gives an "appearance" (intentionally or not) of being satanic. I cannot make a dogmatic conclusion. And I have been careful to qualify in that manner, over and over...despite your dishonest and false accusation to the contrary.

      But if he has the audacity and the willingness to blatantly disobey the Scripture's advisories regarding "appearance of evil"...then I won't hesitate to point it out.

      He is most definitely on a "suspect" list. I most definitely hold his lyrics in extremely low esteem in terms of presenting any Gospel truth. But I draw up short of dogmatic conclusions, as you well know from reading almost any portion of my comments on Toby Mac.

      If he is flashing 5000-year old satanic symbolism on his CDs, he should EXPECT controversy and controversial discussions. But people who express grave concerns about his possible satanic allegiances are not flat declaring him to be satanic..they're merely "expressing grave concerns" (to quote myself).

      With regard to your OT/NT questions, I'm not sure what exact conspiracy theory you're cooking up here. (?) I rely extensively on the OT. OT passages play a huge role in Ch. 17 of my e-book (linked above), as one tiny example.

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  10. Thank you so much for publishing this! I've just found your site, and am reading through the material. I have to share, though, right now, as I'm a little freaked out by Toby Mac.

    It started when we went to one of his small church "concerts" earlier this year. He runs some videos while his group performs, and they are projected up onto a screen behind them. The material that is in these videos is very strange. It's not uplifting, or positive, but involves a lot of abstract objects, dark, shadowy trees, sad people. Nothing that you would expect at a Christian concert.

    I've started to study the "illuminati," and I think that a lot of artists are not aware of what their marketing people are doing around them. They take their word for "what sells," I'm guessing. And that's what I thought the explanation was for Toby Mac's weird visuals. There are things in abstract materials, oftentimes, that are designed to convey a subliminal message. If you are not aware that these things happen, it's easier to fall prey to them.

    At the same time, Toby's music *seems* to be Christian. If I was the devil, I wouldn't want that music to get out as much as Mr. Mac's does. But I'll have to listen a little more carefully, perhaps. I hope he is not dabbling in the dark side.

    Now my husband has bought Toby's latest album. It's called "Eye On It," and has one big eye on the front. This is a popular illuminuttie symbol, and I was very disappointed when I saw that. But I'm looking forward to reading the rest of your material, and finding out more about what the story is here. God wills that none should be lost, which means that none WILL be lost. We need to pray for Toby, and Jay-Z, and Madonna, and all the other nutty minions that are falling hook, line, and sinker for the promises of those that may have gone way astray. God bless you and yours, and keep up the good work!

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    1. Thanks for the kind words. I'd say--keep on reading and studying. There are many wolves among the sheep these days.

      I'd make the argument that Toby mMc's lyrics are utterly useless in terms of presenting the Gospel. There is NO Gospel presentation...no mention of Jesus that I could find...nothing. Food for thought for the hubby!

      Thanks again.

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    2. Certainly no good lyrics in "Ill-M-i" - quite the opposite! And even if Toby didn't write those, he sings them. I'll check out the other ones soon. God bless - you are a most courageous soul!

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  11. I just read through some of the comments. I have to wonder - the people criticizing you - if they read the Bible at all. The Bible is very clear about the need to stay away from sorcery, wizardry, withcraft, etc. The OT is full of stories about what happened when the people did not listen to God over this. The Bible says to not have anything to do with the world, to be apart from it. Do not be conformed to the world, but be renewed by the transforming of your mind. To have friendship with the world is enmity with God. Philippians 4:8 says Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

    The Bible says that when you turn to Jesus Christ you are a new creature. He changes you. I know it's true because he changed me. My sanity was restored. My speech, priorities, my behavior is different. My old life does not appeal to me at all. Part of that was heavy metal and a very destructive life style. A miracle happened. Jesus Christ changed me. I see the christian heavy metal and it's defiant and depressing. Some of the lyrics are dark and strange. My heart feels so heavy and sad when I look at their blogs and facebook. They are leading people to another jesus.

    So when I see so-called christian bands that use backwards writing, runes, occult symbolism, Nazi symbolism, masonic symbolism, pictures of demons, one-eyed symbolism, serpents, members giving the satanic hand sign, and a host of other weird things - it sends a red flag. Why would they want to exhibit an appearance of evil to attract kids to Christ - it's insanity!

    Jesus told his disciples he was sending them out amongst wolves. Paul said when he left they'd be left among wolves. Nothing has changed. The wolves are out there to separate you from the Jesus Christ of the Bible. We need to know who they are. We need to be sober and alert, reading the Bible and praying.

    I know people who like heavy metal christian music. To tell them that it is not right, they don't understand. They can't. They don't read the Bible. They don't want to. I told one person that to have this one band play at church was bringing the world into the church and we are told not to do that - it only corrupts the church - she said she never heard that.

    She never head that because it's in the Bible!

    A poster said you were jealous because of people they were bringing to Christ. But it's not the Jesus Christ of the Bible these people are coming to. That Jesus is a Jesus that says you can do whatever you want. All you do is say I believe Jesus is the son of God and he died for me - and then that's it. And nothing changes. Their speech and behavior is like the world. It's lip service. That is what I have observed. That is the fruit of CCM that I have seen. But I am the weirdo.

    It's an interesting day when the person who believes what the Bible says and wants to obey it is a weirdo in the Christian community.

    Oh, yeah, and some of these christian CCM artists wear Obey clothing with the inverted crosses and other creepy symbols. Why?

    Symbols are the language of the occult. Their symbols are very meaningful and very powerful to them. We need to be aware and pay attention.

    I am very grateful for your hard work, Matt.

    And Yes, 'christians' pretending to be christian while overtly showing who they really work for and people saying how wonderful they are is so sad.

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    1. The sleepiness of church-going folks these days is astounding and startling to me.

      Your comments are extremely encouraging to me. I admit I haven't even looked very closely at the "Christian" heavy metal bands.

      On the rare occasion I am at a Christian book/music store, I can see out of the corner of my eye, the massive occult symbolism on the their CD covers. I would suspect these are (what I would call) "wolf" bands. Then again, there may be many of them who are just ignorant about occult symbolism. I don't know.

      Certainly, this "Whosoever" outfit...their poster consists of massive, wall-to-wall satanic symbolism.

      Praise God that he brought you out of the darkness into salvation. May God bless you in redirecting your life (assuming the change has happened recently?).

      You know..the idea Toby mac is "leading people to Jesus"...you can't lead people to Jesus if you never MENTION Jesus. His lyrics are Jesus-less and Gospel-less. But I think you're right---many folks refer to "Jesus" in vain. It reminds of the Bible's prediction--"many will say, Lord, Lord, look at all we did in your name".

      I'll have to look into this "Obey" clothing. Hadn't heard of it. C28 products are certainly loaded down with occult symbolism.

      Thanks again.

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    2. Looking at the C28 website, they have a new clothing line called B IT by Toby Mack's drummer. Interesting. Looking at the bookstore I see they promote new age/contemplative/emergent authors.

      The way I see it, Toby Mack is just another CCM tool for the ecumenical new age process of bringing everyone together in unity and diversity for the one world religion and preparation for the antichrist.

      I was reading another website about Toby Mack and they were saying how he sings about unity and diversity, etc. - new age code words. So it makes sense. Satan wants to keep people away from the Jesus of the Bible. Let them THINK they are worshiping Jesus, but they really aren't. They don't know the Bible, so they easily believe a lie. The Bible says that God is bringing a strong delustion on those who refuse the believe the truth - which is God's word.

      Toby Mack's use of occult symbolism is just his way of signaling that he is one of them.

      Is the number 23 associated with chaos, too?



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    3. I too am one of those weirdos. Sad when a Christian feels like they don't fit in at church.

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  12. ~Labby
    Hi Matt. hope you are well. If readers are struggling to wrap their brains around the symbolism and want to dismiss it (because most Christians often are loving and forgiving), even if they should not, then here is yet another. In addition to the Whosoevers "ministry" that BibleBeliever pointed out on her blog, there is another album with the "Eye" art. Flyleaf's newest. It's amazing how the artist always has a reasonable explanation as to why they used it, like Toby Mac. How many is it going to take before Christians realize that they are probably being duped? Here are two links:
    http://www.facebook.com/flyleafmusic?fref=ts
    http://site.flyleafmusic.com/

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    1. I asked my daughter about Flyleaf. She says they're one of those bands that started of as "sort-of-Christian-ish"...then she and the kids at her youth group (at our church) noticed they use foul language during their interviews.

      It's amazingly murky and gray and vague out there in the CCM world these days. Groups that fade in and out of the "Christian" category. One minute, they're "Christian", the next minute, they're not.

      But yes, their CD cover is quite chilling and blatant...and yes, I am also amazed at the blindness and lack of discernment among church-goers. I'll have to include that Flyleaf CD in my next blog article.

      I have to sort of apologize-- I went though a brief period of rather intense stress...when there were 3 or 4 commenters who were making a concerted effort to harass and create deception and confusion in my comments section (couldn't quite tell if they were satanic or not)...then simultaneously, I seemed to have been locked out of my own blog. I thought my blog was being subjected to some kind of sophisticated manipulation...but in the end it merely required a bit of routine de-bugging...and the harassers went away. But I was pretty stressed. Thanks for letting me vent a bit on some emails...but also sorry to have dumped on you!

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  13. ~Labby
    No problem, my friend. I'd have been stressed out too with all of that. Totally understandable. Quite frankly, I can only take so much before I weary of it. I don't know how you do it.

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  14. This all sounds like a bunch of "demons on doorknobs" thinking. I've followed TobyMac's music and ministry since the early days of DCTalk and have been to numerous concerts. I have all of his CDs and know all the words and understand his lyrics. You obviously have listened to very little and I would bet have never attended any of his concerts. How could someone read from the Holy Bible explaining the way of salvation leading many to Christ and be some Luciferian??? You are NUTS! Plain and simple. Why don't you just work on your own relationship with the Lord (assuming you have one) and leave those who are actually doing good (leading people to Jesus and singing his praises) alone and quit causes division in The Church. I will pray for you. You need it!!!

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    1. Ah, another reader who has failed to do the recommended prep reading which I carefully advise at the top of this article.

      I hadn't heard the expression "demons on doorknobs". I had heard about "demons behind every bush"...and of course, every Bible student knows there IS a demon behind every bush. The world is crawling and teeming with evil spirits. The world is beset and besieged by the Devil and his minions. Not sure why you, an apparent believer, would be ridiculing basic biblical fact.

      You need to turn your question around. If Mac is (as you think) a genuine Christian...why does he continually give indication of satanic allegiance? Why the continual posing for photos, showing only one eye? Why the "eye" on a DC Talk album ten years ago, and another "eye" on the recent "Eye On It" CD?

      You don't think satanic wolves who have become pastors or Christian singers read from the Bible in front of their audiences?

      If a satanist openly signals allegiance to Satan through dozens and dozens of publicly displayed symbols...all he has to do is read from the Bible at a meeting...and he is immediately and automatically cleared?? That's some amazingly poor discernment.

      Wolves "read from the Bible" all day long. Assuming Mac may be Luciferian...what did you think he was going to do at his concerts? Sacrifice a goat onstage during a satanic ritual?

      The whole idea of being a "wolf in sheep's clothing' is to fool people. Hello? They ARE going to pray and read the Bible.

      I don't suspect people of being satanic when they pray and read the Bible. I suspect them of being satanic if they pray and read the Bible AND have a thousand satanic symbols and signals they're constantly displaying. Call me Sherlock, perhaps?

      You claim Toby is "leading people to Christ". His lyrics certainly aren't. They're absolutely Gospel-less. There isn't the slightest chance anyone could ever come to an understanding of the Gospel of salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus...from reading Mac's lyrics.

      All those hundreds of homemade Toby Mac Youtubes and not a single one which shows him "preaching the Gospel" at one of his concerts. Therefore, I suspect that the way in which you define "Gospel presentation" is woefully lacking. But I'm willing to stand corrected if anyone can ever show evidence.

      It's quite ironic that satanists seem to have a more accurate understanding of Bible theology than average church-goers...because they know full well (as Bible students should but often don't) that simply "praying a prayer" doesn't make you a shoo-in for heaven. Wolves will pray prayers with people all day long. The Devil (and Toby Mac also?) doesn't care HOW many prayers you pray...as long as you fall away in the Great Apostasy in the end.

      Are you not aware of the grand strategy of all these satanic Christian leaders who are conspiring to create this huge Apostasy Plot? Read Matthew 24. There, Jesus describes very large numbers of spectacularly deceptive satanic "Christian" leaders who perpetrate this deadly deception.

      When you ridicule folks like me as "nuts" because of our belief there are satanic wolves who have deceptively infiltrated God's flock,you are therefore ridiculing the Bible and ridiculing Jesus' warnings about these covert satanists. Read Matthew 24 carefully and repeatedly.

      Delete
  15. His arms are bent.
    Look, Barney, Arms were made to bend. Don't you ever fold your arms?
    You can only see one eye:What's wrong with one eye showing? You ever covered your eye? I have. OMGosh. I must be evil.
    plaid shirt:I have one and I wear it. I must be evil
    Black and white:My fave colors. AM I EVIL??
    You guys need to focus on yourself and your relationship with Jesus. Not on Tmac's. Read the bible. And, skillet isn't bad either. Their songs have saved my life. yeah. It's called suicide. Look, why don't you show some love?

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    1. "Barney"? Lovely name-calling from someone who presumes to counsel me on spirituality. Hmmm.

      Yet another reader who has failed to do the prep reading (carefully indicated at the top of this article). No, not all "plaid shirts" are evil...and if you thus need to exaggerate in your rebuttal, that would seem to speak for itself, no?

      There ARE satanic wolves in sheep's clothing who utilize extremely diabolical and ingenious counterfeiting methods. If you don't like the people on my suspect list...how about YOU point out a popular, well-known Christian leader who has a facade so convincing that the majority of the Christian community has been fooled? Point out even one. I'm standing by.

      To ridicule the concept of spectacularly deceptive "Christian" wolves...is to ridicule the Bible's concept..and is to ridicule Jesus' warnings in the Olivet Discourse. Wow-- how did you pull THAT off?

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  16. Hi Matt. I recently discovered your blog and I think it's terrific in Jesus name.
    In the article on Toby Mac, you mentioned Max Lucado. There is some occult symbolism on his book covers. It is subtle like Michael W. Smith stuff, but I believe it's real on several of his book covers.The book Fearless is one in particular.
    Keep up the great work and God bless you in Jesus name.

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    1. Yes, I noticed that "Jesus-is-Lord" website pointing out some of Lucado's book covers. It looks increasingly bad. Yes, the book cover for "Fearless" looks like a truncated pyramid with the floating triangle, virtually identical to the ancient satanic symbolism on the One Dollar bill. Thanks for the info! And thanks for the good words.

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  17. I totally agree that the occult is everywhere and even in the ''Christian music'' industry and the sad thing is that people prefer to sell their albums and to sell more they need to be like the world so they do like the world but the Bible says in Matthew 6:24 '' No one can serve two masters.Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.''

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  18. http://breathecast.christianpost.com/files/news/news_1251980776_Awake_Skillet.jpg Check that Skillet awake album they took the eye of Horus also know as the all seeing eye symbol which is occult and as nothing to do with the eye of God but which is the eye of lucifer.

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    1. Yes, I'd seen that Skillet CD cover before. I feel like I'm getting behind in publishing all these satanic symbols on CCM album covers. In fact, I'm going to belatedly insert this photo right beneath my section on Derek Webb of Caedmon's Call...in my "Yet More Occultism in High Places" article (a bit more than a third of the way down the page). Check it out! And thanks for the reminder.

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  19. Hello I Came across your post and I appreciate your research. This issue has to be exposed and taken seriously and unfortunately many prefer the head in the sand point of view. I would like to point out that there are numerous people who play a role in the development of the music and the graphic art.

    Nashville like any other city that produces influential media is riddled with people involved with the masonic(among other things) at all levels. Their job is to corrupt and infiltrate and most of the artists are utterly clueless. As far as TobyM he has so much masonic imagery going all the way back to the beginning of his career(what does the DC in DC Talk really mean anyway?) that I have little doubt that he is likely a mason. But does he even realize what he is a part of because most of them don't have a clue. They are lied to from the beginning and many think its a Judeo Christian brotherhood. I also wonder about John Cooper who basically is Skillet. I'd listened to him since their first album and stopped after they went mainstream but he worshiped Jesus with all he had early on. Maybe its just wishful thinking but I think many of the artists are in the industry and are not discerning that those working with them serve a completely different agenda.

    The masonic influence has also been extremely influential in the Christian church(all denominations) and I think it is what Jesus warned us about when he was speaking of the wheat and tares and especially the sheep and goats. He said that to pull up the tares would also pull up the wheat and so both must harvested and judgment would take place at that time. He also said to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, which is what you are doing (and I've been on a heck of a learning curve for a while trying to do). We unfortunately aren't taught most of these things in church especially these days. I wonder why?

    Thanks and keep it up, CF

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  20. WHO ARE YOU to judge these people/bands? You don't know how many people got to know God through their music!! This is so sad that people just can't listen to godly stuff and just spend their time to search for occultism everywhere! I don't know if they are or not in bad things like that, but whatever, their songs make my relationship with God stronger, this I can't deny, so... they work for God! OMG!

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    1. Wait a minute -- didn't you just "judge" me? And you say you don't care if they "are or not" satanic? Okey-dokey then. Most of the church world has fallen into a deep, deep snooze. If you think satanic CCM artists can "make your relationship with God stronger"...think again.

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  21. What gets your attention gets you. It's clear that YOUR life and YOUR focus are squarely on the occult- to the point you spend HOURS looking for things to complain about.

    There are two ways to be controlled by something. Working hard to get it and working hard to stay away from it. Either way, your life is given over to it.

    You've given your life over to the occult. It's a shocking revelation but you know it's true.

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    1. Your statement ("what gets your attention gets you") is contradictory. My blog got YOUR attention. Using your own illogic...I have now completely taken over your life and you are now my prisoner, lol.

      Your "complaint" (to borrow a term) is silly. I have a blog. I report suspicious indications of covert satanism in the church world. It hasn't created some sort of unhealthy balance in my life. I have a family, wife, children, a business, hobbies, golf, travel...the works. Anyone who has a blog is therefore "possessed" by the blog? That's quite the conspiracy theory.

      You're simply piggy-backing on this age-old notion which floats around the conservative church world...that anyone who undertakes to study demons, the Devil and satanism is going to become obsessed and/or even possessed by the Devil.

      You are literally claiming that if anyone spends time studying the Devil and his schemes (per the Bible's instructions, by the way)...they will become possessed by the Devil. Good grief. The Middle Ages are calling -- they want their superstitions back!

      Brother, your views are pure superstition and anti-biblical. I've studied the warnings of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse and I try to pass those warnings along. It's a matter of eternal life and eternal death. Yes, I've spent some "hours" in the effort. That's what I do here. (?)

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  22. Could the "Lions Paw" pertain to puttin our right hand over our hearts during the pledge of allegiance?!

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    1. I'm sure it is. I imagine you could find knowledgeable insights from ex-Masons and the like.

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  23. Matt, I have been reading your work and i do see disturbing things. I have not come full circle on this yet... I am now aware of this symbolism in mainstream....well everything.I have to by my nature take it slowly and prayerfully, however you have opened my eyes.Interesting one of the bands that has a lot of dealing with Tobymac is Skillet a "Christian band" there fan club is called the pan heads! i know skillet = pan but going to the double meaning thing.Look at the song monster and the imigery...creepy stuff reminds me of the scion commercial.Much prayers

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  24. WOW, this information is mind blowing. I never knew Toby Mac used all that symbolism. I never buy his CD's but I have his music in my iTunes.

    I wanted to ask if you have looked into Rebecca St. James and her brothers' band, For King and Country? She came to our church last year for her "She" conference and there was NO gospel presentation at all. It had nothing to do with Jesus. And I saw a picture of her brothers posing with the New Ager, Roma Downey. And endorsing their TV series on "The Bible" that is going on the History Channel right now. Here is a link about how Downey and Burnett are false christians that the church (and focus on the family) is trying to pass off as real. I would really like to hear more about wolves in sheeps clothing. I go to a calvary, and I am so upset about General Boykin coming and with the whole Ergun Caner scandal. I want to see the church speak up and warn the sheep. Like a good shepherd. Thanks for your blog and I loved your book!!!

    http://thelasthiker.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/wake-up-me-screaming-then-apologizing-for-some-strange-reason/

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  25. Also, What about Hillsong United? I LOVE their worship songs but when their Aftermath album came out, I noticed a ton of triangles and upside down geometric pictures all over it.

    There new album coming out is called "Zion" and it looks so desolate, like the pictures were taken in a creepy desert wilderness. I have a weird feeling about them right now.

    I found out that the Brian Houston's wife promotes plastic surgery and external shallowness, and I saw a picture of Joel Houston the lead worship singer drinking hard alcohol with a bunch of bikini girls (one is his wife). But still weird image--when I used to think of him as pouring over his Bible for the next beautiful worship song to write. Anyways, I don't want to be a "sin sniffer" but I also don't want to be led away. Especially since worship is such a holy thing--to let the enemy have any part of that in my life. You know???

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    1. Hey, thanks for the good words! I don't know anything about Hillsong. Their CD covers don't look too bad.

      The ironic thing that has been occurring to me recently is...that you don't have to be an out-and-out satanic wolf in order to be a full-blown participant in the apostatizing process in the conservative church world.

      In other words, satanic or not, all these CCM'ers and other Christian leaders who promote the whole Starbucks/Disneyland happy-happy-bubble version of Evangelicalism...with it's dreamy "carried-off-to-heaven-on-flowery-beds-of-ease" PreTrib Rapture...the whole "support the troops" mantra--which is equal to supporting the Antichrist's globalist militarism and world of warring...and the whole Dominionist idea that this is the golden age of Evangelicalism....they're carrying out the Antichrist's program just as effectively!

      But it's still interesting (is "disturbing" a better word?) to come across these deviously disguised wolves.

      I haven't seen any evidence on St.James. She has been pretty closely associated with Michael Smith. She's probably just another of these mainstream CCM'ers who go along with the program. Thanks again!

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  26. Okay, most of this stuff is just a witch hunt. Seriously, you and jesusissavior.com really need to find a better hobby than bashing innocent people.

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    1. I'm just agreeing with the Olivet Discourse and Jesus' comments there. He said many satanic Christian leaders would emerge in the last days. So I guess Jesus is also "bashing innocent people"? If you don't like my line-up of suspected wolves...then how about YOU point out these satanic leaders Jesus indicated. Name just one cleverly concealed satanic wolf who is thought to be a "Christian" by the Christian community. Just one. Or was Jesus prophecy wrong?

      There ARE satanists in the world...and they DO conceal themselves within the Christian community. It's a great hiding place. The whole concept is in the Bible. You know..."wolves in sheep's clothing". Again, I challenge you to point out just one of these spectacularly deceptive and concealed wolves in a top leadership position. I'm standing by.

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    2. Jesus never mentioned any christian leaders. Christianity had not yet formed. Thus the Olivet Discourse could apply to any teachers anywhere.

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    3. Jesus-following (i.e. "Christianity") began the very moment Jesus had followers. Not sure how you're missing that.(?) Was there some 'paperwork' that needed to be filled out or something, in your mind? You're losing me. :)

      You have completely ignored the 'context' of the passage: The disciples (i.e. the first "Christians, the first Jesus-followers) came to Him asking what they should look out for in the last days. Jesus said to look out for the "false prophets" because many will be deceived and only those among His followers who are careful will avoid the deception.

      The context is so obvious...your claim is very puzzling. Not to mention....non-Christians are ALREADY deceived so therefore the 'false prophets' would having nothing to deceive them about in the first place!

      Jesus plainly states "[you disciples, you Jesus-followers] see to it that no one deceives you"...and then goes on to describe the deception attempts of the false prophets. Come on now.

      And you haven't answered the biblical argument that there ARE infiltrating wolves in the church. You seem to have a general objection to the idea of spectacularly deceptive wolves...which is an objection to Bible truth. (?)

      If you don't like my 'suspects list' then point to even one ingeniously, diabolically deceptive wolf who is currently fooling the length and breadth of Bible-believing church-dom. I'm standing by.

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  27. He came to set the captive FREEEEE! Maybe someday you will let him set you free. Yes, there are demons in this world. Yes, there are people that dabble in the occult. But there isn't a demon under every bush. There's no conspiracy by the artists you mention, only a low budget. Most of the "visual markers" you mentioned on the cover art are generic computer desktop publishing items. There's not much to choose from if you've ever tried to create flyers, this website, etc. DC Talks eye has to do w/the lyrics. He has his eye on the prize by keeping his eye on Christ. You find that Satanic? Seriously? If all you have to do is tear down your fellow siblings in Christ...well I'm sad for you. YOU are the one living in bondage. God said to spend your time lifting up, building up, edifying...well lets just quote Him, "Whatsoever things are pure. Whatsoever things are lovely. Whatsoever things are of GOOD REPORT, think on these things." Doesn't sound like He's telling any of us to pick apart each other and undermine others testimonies. If you don't like the music? Don't listen to it. If you don't think it's holy enough for you, find something that is, then share that. These people have taken the talents God gave them and USED them instead of burying them in the ground. God will tell them WELL DONE MY GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS. What's He gonna say to you when your time comes? Do you think your hyper-obsession w/satanic anything is going to make Him proud of you? Don't spend so much time looking for your enemy when your eyes should be focused on your Father. Ask Him to speak to your heart about these individuals that cause you such concern. Maybe He like tapping his foot to some lively praise on occasion. Isn't that what Psalms was all about???? You know, you can READ the lyrics to the songs w/o listening to the music. If you don't like the genre, you will undoubtedly find fault with it. However, if you read what pours from their hearts to our Father, you might be overwhelmed. Just a thought.

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    1. OK so...I'm expressing concerns and criticizing the behavior of certain CCM artists...and you, in turn, are also expressing concerns and criticizing my behavior...but when I do it, it is a terrible wrong...yet when you do it, you're in the right? Get back to me when you figure it out. :)

      For example -- the Scripture which you quote and have horrendously misapplied ("whatsoever things are of good report, think on these things")...isn't my stuff supposedly of 'bad report' and aren't you giving a substantial amount of "thought" to it...thus breaking your own pseudo-rule? I could go on. Your comments are a long line-up of self-contradictions. It is indeed a very biblical thing to be on the look-out for the infiltration of enemy wolves.

      Are you literally in denial that satanic agents have deviously infiltrated God's flock? If you DON'T deny it...then how would you recommend we go about uncovering these dangerous wolves? Jesus instructs us to be on the look-out for these wolves (read Matt.24).

      Jesus has stated in point-blank fashion that there ARE many satanic wolves who have infiltrated the flock. If you don't like my suspects list...just where ARE all those hugely deceptive wolves among God's people? Point out even one single suspect...a wolf who has been spectacularly deceptive such that virtually the entire church world has been fooled. I'll be standing by.

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    2. @ Anonymous July 2, 2013 at 10:13 PM :

      Anonymous, instead of launching ad hominem attacks at Matt, try consulting Scripture and you will clearly see that it REPEATEDLY warns of wolves in sheep's clothing purposely doing the work of satan under the guise of Christianity & before I became born-again and saved by Jesus Christ, I am ashamed to admit that I knew individuals who knowingly engaged in this. Do not dismiss this...yes it IS indeed a satanic conspiracy, but it is NOT a theory--it is a real, malevolent plan that is actively in full force and targets lukewarm Christians who feel attending church on Sunday and listening to the pastor substitutes for authentic study of the divinely-inspired, preserved Word of God (King James Holy Bible). Humble yourself and ask Christ to reveal the truth to you. Heed his Word: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."...1 John 4:1 KJB

      "For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.".....2 Corinthians 11:13-15 KJB

      Finally, as a born-again servant of our Savior Jesus Christ, we ARE commissioned to call out wolves in sheep's clothing; it is 100% Biblical.

      "But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.".........Ezekiel 33:6 KJB

      Your sister in Christ, Elise

      Delete
  28. hahaha.,, what a coincidences.!! i think it's just an over reaction.!! :) totally i appreciate all their songs (toby mac, Michael Smith) so,, what's the matter if i draw a triangle.? or i close my right eye while i open my left eye.? it depends always on your heart motivations., dont ever judge if you dont know them, try to know their testimonies, their goals in their life not their simple mistakes doing those such thing you see.,, i suggest that you know more Jesus NOT His Creations.,, GOD BLESS US :'D

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    1. I've expressed concerns and criticism about some of these CCM people...and you have expressed concern/criticism about me. But when I do it I'm being "judgmental"...and you're not? You can't have it both ways. if it's OK for you to express some concerns...then it's OK for me to express some concerns.

      Whether yours or my concerns are correct is another story. But it's OK to have concerns about occult symbol display...and it's OK to have concerns about categorizing people as "occultist" when they may, in fact, not be.

      The problem, with your complaint is...it's not true. I haven't 'concluded' anyone is satanic. I'm simply saying there are dozens if not hundreds of CCM bands and musicians these days who are displaying satanic symbolism on their published materials. Just because you have no familiarity with occult symbolism, the Lion's Paw, or satanic "runes"...is neither here nor there.

      It's a bit flippant, don't you think? Briefly browsing through one blog article as you have...then rushing to "judgment" (to borrow a term).

      Delete
  29. Hi Matt:
    I read your book over year ago and you changed the way I look at the world. I thank you for the time you took to research and write the book, as well as your other articles. I came back tonight to look up info about Toby Mac since I heard that he had gone to school at Liberty. I wanted to see if that was one of the "christian schools" that have been connected with the Mind Control programming. I read some of the comments people have been making. Don't get sidetracked by them. Keep doing what you do - write. You have changed my way of thinking and probably many others as well. Don't throw pearls to swine. Some people don't want the truth. Don't waste your time. The truth is usually not popular. God bless you and thank you so much. Look forward to much more from you.

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    1. Thanks for the kind words. Liberty is the late Jerry Falwell's college. Haven't noticed any particular 'mind control' or satanic intrigue with that school...other than the long list of hugely tragic erroneous notions which float around the Evangelical mainstream:

      For one thing, their "support the troops" mantra, which is to say they support every gory, bloody war that gets dreamed up by the US military industrial complex (the very tip of the Antichrist's spear, if you ask me).

      Not to mention, their backing of the PreTrib rapture doctrine...which will play a central role in the Great Apostasy deception described by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. A doctrine which will become the single greatest cause of tragedy in the history of the church world.

      Delete
  30. This stuff is rampant in the Churches and Contemporary Christian Music .

    One preacher you may want to look into is Dr. David Jeremiah . He has an All Seeing Eye window behind his pulpit and he regularly flashes Masonic / Satanic hand signals.

    A few weeks ago I saw Dr. Jeremiah hold up a Bible in his left hand and crunch his right hand into a Lion's Paw (imagine Lady Ga Ga type paw) and paw at the air over the Bible several times. It was extremely obvious and very odd. Blatant Masonic / Satanic.

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    1. I am glad you pointed that out. I used to listen to him on 90.9 FM, a local "Christian" radio station here in Texas, and never saw him on TV. After seeing him do the mano cornuto devils horns hand sign online, I knew he was not serving Jesus Christ. Another is Alistair Begg, and I loved his sermons (90.9) because he seemed so sincere and authentic. But for some reason, after a while, I felt the need to stop listening to his sermons until I worked it out with God. I admit, I had a nudging feeling to check him out online because it began to seem he was too good to be true, and saw on you tube him explaining his process for preparing for sermons. What jumped out at me was his technique he called, "thinking myself empty". That is occult talk for, moving out of the way so a demon can step in and become your mouthpiece. Of course, they don't call them demons, they call them "spirit guides" or "friendly spirits", but it is what it is.

      The final confirmation came at the end of his interview when he said his most crucial step was "to forget yourself--and I don't mean as a posture, I mean as a reality". In my opinion, he has just unzipped and packed away his sheep suit. See the video here: http://youtu.be/MXj6MLQ8138

      Delete
    2. Whoa! "Think myself empty"?? Sounds very similar to "contemplative prayer" techniques. I agree -- making way for a demon is exactly what that does. Boy -- Jeremiah is a tough pill to swallow. If all the signs of occult allegiance are coming directly from him...it is what it is, I guess. Swindoll is another huge disappointment -- duped (hopefully just 'duped') into a huge endorsement of this "empty your mind" Contemplative Prayer occultism.

      Delete
    3. It is getting harder to find real Bible-believing Christians. Observe this man's blog, who claims to be a learned biblically educated man as he challenges the biblical truth that marriage is between one man and one woman. This guy actually tries to preach that the Bible approves this:

      http://thebiblicalworld.blogspot.com/2012/03/is-this-biblical-marriage.html

      Delete
  31. Anybody have any insights into Jars of Clay, or are they okay?

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  32. Most "christian" leaders have succumbed.

    Tebow - http://youtu.be/AX1_B958Ob8

    Lecrae Reach Records - http://youtu.be/fhfBtFwdcrM
    Part 3 Trailer - http://youtu.be/rxYuRMwqdGw

    DC Talk - http://youtu.be/r7gRJFe5zt8

    Eddie Long - http://youtu.be/GIks_SdeHCI

    This list can go on and on.

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  33. Has any one on this on this site taken the time to research basic art and photography?
    Concerning illustration shading and basic photography what you are associating as being cultish is taught in the basics. The Art illustration techniques were around before the masons and probably practiced by the Greeks in Christs time.
    Isaiah 5:20
    Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
    Jesus himself never said shadows on illustrations were sin. If your faith is in God you have nothing to fear. The Gospel is the Good News!

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    1. There ARE wolves in the flock. How do you propose we go about identifying them? Not sure what you mean by "illustration techniques". There ARE occultists in the world and they DO have secretive symbols and signals.

      You need to re-read my above article. I don't dogmatically characterize folks as occultists. I simply point out the apparent occult symbolism and signaling.

      The comment that Jesus never said anything about "illustrations" is dubious. He also never said anything about texting while driving!

      Delete
    2. You are ignorant of what is running the art schools. Why don't you check out "eye" magazine. Most of the people participating in the "occult" are just ignorant sheep. The initiated have you running through their maze like rats.

      Delete
    3. Running through a maze? I don't think I'm following your argument. I simply point out the evidence of occultism which has infiltrated the church...just as the Bible predicts will be the case. Maybe you need to re-phrase or something?

      Delete
  34. Firstly, everything I read in this article is misinformed. I have studied the Occult for quite a while now, I am a Luciferian Spiritualist, and I am someone who actually exposes myself to all sorts of information. This blog was brought to my attention by an acquaintance, normally I don't care what misinformed minds have to say, but I am bored so here we go. Firstly, that first article you shared about occultism in Christian music bands is highly stupid. The word Yoni for example is Sanskrit, means womb. How they relate that word to "Satanic circles" beats me. Of course with other symbolism's such as the All-Seeing Eye, true that is used in the Occult but it being a Satanic symbol made me laugh out loud. But people, especially christians have no idea what the Occult is, it was practiced in their religion for a long, long time back in the Ancient days. Occult, is Latin for Occultus or Knowledge of the Hidden or Secrets of Life/Existence.

    Then you talk about the Emanating Rays, how it is Occult related because Lucifer is attributed with rays of Light. But so is Jesus, even said that in the bible. Jesus brings light to the world, Lucifer means Light Bringer or Light Bearer. Ergo from that kind of thinking, Jesus is Lucifer.

    Aleister Crowely wasn't a Satanist either, he was a Thelemite.

    The Kabbalah was used by all Jews and in some sects still as, especially after students finished reading the Torah and Talmud. It is more Mysticism then Occult. Christians even used it during the Renaissance which then of course converted it to fit their own dogma, meaning they changed it and screwed up its true meaning. If anything, their is more positive in the Kabbalah then anything else.

    The infinity symbol is not a Satanic symbol, the Satanic Cross is the symbol of sulfur, which has the infinity symbol in it, has nothing to do with infinity. It actually looks like a Lorraine Cross with the mathematical symbol of infinity. Because my first name is Tony, does that mean the letter T makes me a christian or a Savior because it is shaped like a cross?

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    1. Somehow you're under the impression that if you "laugh out loud" at something, this is a powerful rebuttal. Not.

      You're making all kinds of bare assertions. What good is that?

      But just to offer a basic rebuttal to what seems to be the gist of your comments -- you scoff insultingly at the idea that occultists might be secretively hidden within the world of Christian music...when, in fact, the very objective of occultists is to be...secretive and hidden. Hello?

      That is, after all, what the word means..."secret" and/or "hidden". If you're not engaged in deceptive and dishonest secretiveness and hiddenness...you're not an occultist.

      Think about it, especially from you're hugely condescending viewpoint: What would be more "fun" for an occultist than to successfully slither his way into Christian circles...and to be mistaken for a sincere Christian...all the while attempting to disrupt and damage the Christian cause?

      Actually, according to the Bible, Satan (i.e. Lucifer) has a master plan of disruption and destruction for the Christian movement...ongoing for centuries.

      A couple of your other comments --"Christians have no idea what the occult is". And you do?? Come on. We can't study and become informed in the way you assume about yourself? A rather silly prejudice, pardon my frankness.

      Another comment -- "[occultism] was practiced in their religion for a long, long time back". The oldest Scriptures going back to the early Old Testament writings expressly forbid occultism. Astrologers, soothsayers, witches, the works...all forbidden in the Bible. People who practice occultism are not of God.

      There is no deceptive, misleading hidden-ness, insider-ism or elitism in true biblical Christianity.

      Delete
    2. Anthony,

      If you are truly a "Luciferian" what is the name of your church? Do you pratice black mass on saturdays? Do you belong to a coven? Just curious.

      As a Luciferian, I am aware you are taught that lucifer is really the Christ of the Bible, but I hate to burst your bubble. Lucifer is SATAN, the SAME evil entity that has terrorized the world since its inception, and the same coward that was banished from Heaven, and the same destroyer who cares NOTHING about you, except to see you forsake Christ's salvation and dwell in the pits of Hell to torment you for eternity. His fate is ALREADY sealed, and Jesus is the Christ, and Christ defeated satan, death, and paid your debt of sin so you can see the face of Almighty God if you reject your deceived worship of damning entities, and are born again in Christ Jesus.

      I was where you are, and I hope you believe me....you have been LIED to. But you CAN STILL be saved. Please think about it.

      It is NOT too late. Lucifer is satan, the father of Lies, deceit, despair and He wants to see you give up eternal life, because He has no second chance. But you CAN be forgiven. Please take heed!

      I may be a former occult member, but I am FORGIVEN and SAVED in Christ....(which as you know, means I wear the armor of God, and any spells or magick used against me will not touch me, and will blast tenfold back at you) you are being LIED to, lucifer is a distant memory of satan, who is the SAME as any other "god" you have learned about, satan is the liar behind every one of those masks.

      I pray for you, and hope you at least CONSIDER thinking about what Christ has done for you. It is true that Jesus saves. It IS true.

      Delete
  35. Matt thank you for all your efforts to tell truth to the world. I am a parent attempting to raise my precious children as God fearing Jesus loving believes. This is hard to do in this sick confusing world of (its all ok and no big deal- the all about me generation)
    Matt bloggers like you are my hero. You are my parent filter.We parents need all the help we can get. I read as much as I could of the comments, you are doing a great job of defending the truth. Please dont stop your good work. I kinda knew the Toby thing was bad ,but third day wow bummer. What do you know of Jamie Grace? Toby seemed to butt in her music video like a bad suite at a wedding .I got sick when I saw that. My children thinks she's great .I don't allow them to be informed of secular worldly things.It's sad that a parent has to filter so much these days. It's comming in from all directions. Please stay strong in the Lord you are helping more then you know. God Bless You Matt,Sincerely A mom in training

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    1. Thanks for the kind words! I haven't seen or heard anything bad about Jamie Grace. But my standards are pretty high -- if they don't have a kind of John-the-Baptist "voice in the wilderness" aspect...they're just a waste of time for me. Just another contributor to the Ken-and-Barbie happy-happy bubble deceptions in the church world these days. Everybody snoozing away with the return of the King five minutes away, give or take a few years.

      Then again...I'll sit there listening to Casting Crowns when I'm driving the car sometimes. While they seem oblivious to the critical "end times" we are living in...at least there seems to be a sincere spiritual dimension to their music.

      It's like almost anything else in the 'church world' these days: When I go to my church on Sunday to listen to another pop psychology sermon almost devoid of solid truth...if the preacher happens to mention a Scripture in passing, sometimes the Holy Spirit will use that mere mention and give my soul something to feed on. We're living on scraps these days...unless we go into the word ourselves and/or create our own little fellowship groups consisting of other Gideon-like followers.

      Delete
  36. @matt twofour.... if a person that is new to christianity or has just accepted Jesus as their savior sees all that u put out there (which to me is a little ridiculous), they would pretty much get disappointed and go right back out. You are doing alot of damage probably without knowing so. U should use ur energy to spread the word of God in a positive way...the holy spirit takes care of the rest. There are "christian" heavy metal bands out there who give me chills when i see videos and i dont feel like they are true christ followers, i dont need anyone telling me, its obvious.


    (N I know u will probably respond with a 10 paragraph answer sounding smart, just know its just a comment!)


    God bless.

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    1. It's all "obvious"?? The Devil can be very devious. There ARE "wolves" among the flock. Not sure why you think it drives people away to see the wolves and the charlatans being pointed out. I would think it would be actually quite refreshing for outsiders to finally see a departure from all the sickeningly corrupt "prosperity gospel" money-mongering and glory-mongering that goes on in the church world, I have to believe that unchurched folks who accidentally tune into to your typical Sunday morning church telecasts...would almost toss their cookies.

      You say there's no need to warn about wolves.,,but that's what "pastoring" / shepherding is all about -- protecting the sheep who all too often wander into trouble. It's not the 'slamdunk' you think it is! How many folks are missing the fact of Toby Mac's gigantic occult symbol on his latest CD and which he placed on a previous CD with DC Talk? Huge danger signs being missed by the masses of the church world.

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  37. Just in case this shows up as anonymous: My name is Preston.

    I have read a lot this morning on your subjects. I am not here to to judge, discredit, or even argue. I would, however, like to state my opinion on a couple of images. The very first image is of Toby Mac, you state his shirt is checkered board, when in fact, it is plaid. Since the picture is black and white we don't really know what color is on the shirt. I also don't see Toby's Masonic arm position as one arm would have to be inverted to make the compass and square. His hand over the heart (Lion's Paw) is a cross cultural symbol for dedication. The Lion's Paw is typically held lower. If we are looking for symbols, why not the Rastafarian Flag on his one album? On to Michael W. Smith and his bracelets. Not sure what makes you think they are Kabbalistic as the picture is black and white. Kabbalah bracelets are typically simple red strings and Smith's look multi-colored (again, guessing as picture is black and white). Max Lucado book cover - I see nothing that look like truncated pyramids or triangles. Kenneth Copeland's book is entitled "How to Build Your Firm Foundation". The compass and square are actual, mathematical tools used in building any structure. So, I would consider this a stretch to say it is Masonic. I read once, "The inherent problem with using a hammer all the time is that everything starts to look like a nail." Wishing you the best. Follow Christ and love man.

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    1. Thanks for the challenging comments. You may prefer to opt for e-mail communication if you wish to go at length and in depth but for now...

      ...I'll just say for openers, you may need to read through at least Chapter One of my e-book (which is linked at the top of this page). You may be missing some context.

      For example, you're questioning the way in which some of Mac's indicators aren't an EXACT match. The thing you will see with occultists if you observe them long enough is...that they are hugely creative and quite at liberty to "modify" and otherwise alter the signals and symbols.

      Then there is also...the context. Mac has placed a gigantic point-blank 5000-year-old occult symbol smack on the cover of his latest CD. He is also posing on the reverse side with a rather blatantly obvious occult pose -- the rune of Tyr.,,which you can look at in depth with Smith's Tyr posing (again, in my Ch.1).

      Mac has previously placed this "all-seeing-eye" on a DC Talk CD about ten years ago....again, accompanied by controversy...which he ignored.

      So now, at the very least, he has shown willingness to engage in "appearance of evil". Whether some of my other analyses are off...it could very well be. I am not dogmatic, But there is...a context.

      The context Mac has created makes it HIGHLY likely he has other signals and symbol presentations going on. The posing with the one eye in the Disney photos...I would have to insist that is very, very obvious. As I said -- there very much appears to have even been some photo-shopping in the one Disney photo.

      As far as the Masonic indicators...you would have to read more extensively in my main e-book or in other sources...about Freemasonry's inner circle of satanic elites who virtually run the show. Many, many Illuminati slaves in the entertainment business. But that's a long story.

      If you scroll down a ways in my Ch. 1...I get into Michael W. Smith and try to provide a bit of a tutorial in satanic symbolism. I think it'll be an eye-opener if you look through it carefully. Sure, I could be wrong about the Kabbalah bracelet and yes, the 'truncated pyramid' on Lucado's book cover may be a stretch...but I become concerned and suspicious when I see him heartily endorsing "Contemplative Prayer" which is a thinly disguised occult practice (go to LightHouseTrailsResearch.com and use their search engine to read up) and being very cozy with a very questionable gang of Third Day, Smith and Mac...with whom he toured.

      Kenneth Copeland? I recommend you read carefully through my Oral Roberts sections in Chapter 13. Scroll about halfway down and look for the paragraph heading "Oral Roberts and the Robert Oxnam Connection". I get more into Copeland there. Again, you have to understand the context when you say I am making flimsy conjecture. No offense taken of course...but if you want to understand my views, you would need to do a little reading!

      Delete
  38. First, thanks for such a quick response. Second, I never said you were making a "flimsy conjecture", I may, however, implied it. Your e-book was part of my readings today and your research can not be denied, but I still feel like its a witch hunt. We tend to find what we want. Like seeing all the red cars when you are thinking of buying one. At this time I am going to concede and leave you to your own theories and practices and I will stick with mine. Until next time, Love God, Love family, Love yourself.

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    1. "Witch hunt"? Ouch! I think I liked "flimsy conjecture" better. Maybe "wolf hunt" would be a more accurate term...although God knows there are certainly enough real-as-a-heart-attack genuine, card-carrying "witches" who have deliberately and cynically infiltrated the church world...disguised as Sunday School teachers and what-not. I've seen this kind of thing eyeball-to eyeball in my years of studying the subject.

      The Bible's more accurate general term though...is "wolves". I would be curious how you would advise that I and others go about uncovering these diabolically and ingeniously disguised wolves who look like "sheep" even from 6 inches away?

      The ONLY reason I ever stumbled on the subject was from testimony of (grievously injured) ex-Satanists who, with the advent of the Information Age, were finally able to tell their stories and alert some of us to the infiltration shenanigans of very determined Satanists.

      I believe the timing of this wave of testimonies is providential...as we seem to be nearing the end times...and Jesus provides great detail in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24) about just this very thing:

      Jesus describes in detail regarding a huge wave of satanic infiltrators who successfully deceive the bulk of church-goers, most of whom will turn out not to have been the "real deal"...as they end up following these deceivers straight through the gates of Hell. Read the Olivet Discourse.

      Just look at the congregations of particularly the super-cool super-churches of today...and tell me the vast majority of these folks aren't glib and flip "fairweather friends"! Seriously.

      If you don't have such a dim view of todays super-faddish super-churches...then your view certainly contrasts with Jesus' view described in the Olivet Discourse.

      Yes, I'd be curious as to your 'take' since you seem such a thoughtful person -- if the Devil has a diabolical ability to deceive such that most people ever born will fall into his deception...why SHOULDN'T we be on the sharp look-out...just like any good shepherd on the lookout for preying wolves? I've been previously chided as you can well imagine "oh my, you're seeing a wolf behind every tree".

      Well no...but I'm certainly LOOKING behind many of the trees! That would be a funny thing to say to a shepherd, don't you think? (Paraphrasing you) "Oh my, you're on a wolf hunt!" Uh, why yes I am -- lol!!

      Ask yourself the question -- can you spot any current major Christian luminary who is actually a diabolically and successfully concealed satanist/wolf in the church world and who has fooled the vast majority (almost all) of church-goers. They ARE there because the Bible SAYS they are there...and are emerging in huge numbers in the last days. Call me a 'wolf-hunter' all you like!!

      Anyway...are you sure you read through the entire Michael Smith section of Ch.1 carefully and slowly? Most people come away from that very deep in thought. If I don't hear back...no hard feelings.

      Prayers and blessings,
      Matt

      Delete
  39. As I look at my black and white checkered shirt hanging up across the room from me that I considered wearing to church that is hanging on a clothes hanger which is in the shape of a triangle, I can't help but wonder if one of Satan's devices is paranoia.

    The triangle is proven to be the strongest geometric shape, therefore (with the fact that it is a basic shape) it is common in society. Point is, the triangle existed before the illuminati. Black and white are neutral colors, and so on. Is there demonic influence in the world? Yes. But we can over-dramatize things to fit our argument and manipulate how we see things to try and prove a point and create division in what should be a unified group of believers.
    I don't care if there is an image of Toby Mac putting his hands on his chest the same exact way I stand for the Pledge of Allegiance (and no one waste your strength typing out how the Pledge of Allegiance has evil influence behind it, because I know why I recite it and that's all that matters) but Toby Mac writes songs that glorify God and no matter his true intent, people legitimately worship God through the music he writes.

    On a side note, any stance of self righteousness, or the felt need of rebuking and correcting others on this conversation is not being salt and light to the lost world and the potential millions of lost souls who come across this site. So instead of spending days and weeks on this post bantering over, quite frankly, pointless "facts" that can only be deemed true by a heart judging God, let's honor God by physically helping "the last of these".

    And before I get the remark, the Bible also says judgement begins at the house of God. If you will quote the Bible, this convo might as well be the house of God. So did I pass some form of judgement? Yes I did.

    Comment however you will, my point is made. I won't be back to respond.

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    1. OK so...was it alright to "pass judgment" or not? Because you certainly were judgmental in your comments...using your own definition of "judgmental". A bit ironic, no?

      Yes, the Devil certainly can and does use "paranoia". Doesn't change the fact that Masons use black and white tiling as a secret signal. And if Toby didn't display about a dozen other occult symbols and signals...I wouldn't wonder about his shirt. Feel free to wear your checkered shirt.

      And yes, the "Pledge of Allegiance" pose has an occult origin but...pledge if you must. Each of us with awareness of our occult surroundings has our gag reflex triggered at different levels and at different times. I certainly cannot get out of the grocery store without a dozen items with satanic corporate logos on them. The vast majority of major corporate logos in America are signaling occult allegiance. Just read the latter part of my Chapter One and all of Chapter Eleven (in my e-book linked above).

      And yes you can continue to put a Christmas tree in your home even though it has point-blank satanic origins and even though there appears to be a point-blank Scripture forbidding Christmas trees in one's home (Jeremiah 10:3,4). But as for me, that's one of those things that trips my gag reflex, frankly.

      And yes, the triangle is an official geometric shape. And it is also doubles as a satanic symbol. What to do...what to do? Apparently, Satanists can walk and chew gum at the same time.

      Delete
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    1. A "test"? I moderate comments here so you'll need to first present your comments and then I 'publish' them. Unless your comments are purely insulting and/or garbled nonsense, I'll post your comments. Challenge me or agree with me in any way you wish!

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  41. Matt, I posted your blog on Vigilant Citizen because there is an article there about Toby Mac. I hope you don't mind. The comments there are moderated, so we'll see if it gets posted. Hope you are well...
    ~Labby

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  42. Matt,

    Great post and good research. Thanks for getting this stuff out there. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Have you studied the prophecy of Daniel and the 4 the beasts? If so what do you make of that???

    Thanks,

    K

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  43. It would appear that Vigilant Citizen is not posting what I wrote, which included links to your articles. We'll wait and see I guess.
    ~Labby

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    1. Greetings, Labby! So they don't like you over at Vigilant Citizen? I have never gotten to the bottom of Vigilant Citizen...as far as their basic beliefs and such. I do like to check out their info. Seems to be incredibly insightful. What do you think?

      Delete
    2. One week later and my comment wasn't posted over there, but I never post there, so it's not like I have a track record that they would hate my comments.

      Well, anyway, they have a section of their website labeled "VC Community" where guests can write articles and VC posts them in that section. There is a recent one on TMac. At first I thought you wrote it. I thought it would be great to let the readers know of your articles as well, but it was never posted over there.

      Not sure about VC - I read it occasionally, however, I always feel like I shouldn't be there. LOL I know nothing about their beliefs but they SEEM to be disgusted by the symbolism out there. Often I see questionable ads featured on the site, but maybe that's not controlled by the site owner, but it still makes me wonder a bit at who is this person behind the site. I will say that in spite of my misgivings, they do certainly seem to be one of the few that spot things and will write about it in a timely way, so that's good.

      You may want to check out their Toby Mac article if you haven't already. Words getting out.
      ~Labby

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    3. I think I accidentally deleted your other brief comment where you're asking me how I am doing. I'm doing good. Busy with life. Have plans for other stuff, time permitting. As far as I know, I think I've left enough stuff out there for people to read through to get up to some sort of speed...at least for now. I'll be interested to read that Mac article.

      I doubt VC has the 'big picture'. Pardon my prejudice but...no one other than serious Bible students who read literally through the Olivet Discourse have any chance of understanding what really is going on with satanic geopolitics and all this elite occult stuff. My view.

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  44. I think honestly if you want to believe that these artist are satanic or illuminati, first maybe you should ask them. Don't assume or judge based on what you think. I wear peace signs cause I think they are cute, but a lady at my church thinks I am supporting satanism because of it. I'm not and I don't think the peace sign is satanic.

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    1. First of all, if any of these folks ARE satanic...(think about it) it would be absolutely and utterly useless to ask them if they ARE satanic. How, where and when would you get a straight forward answer from a Satanist about his Satanism? Come on now!

      Secondly, folks like Smith and Mac HAVE been asked about the occult indicators. They have been evasive or non-responsive. Read my other Toby Mac article here.

      Thirdly, I have never "assumed" or "judged" anything or anyone...if you read carefully. I am simply pointing out all of the occult symbolisms and signalings...and raising questions and concerns about some of these individuals.

      The Scriptures themselves (specifically, Jesus in his Olivet Discourse) give explicit warnings regarding diabolically concealed wolves who infiltrate the flock. If you don't like my "suspects"...then where ARE any of these wolves? Name even one prominent Christian ("Christian") leader who is in actuality a diabolically and cleverly disguised satanic wolf...but who is widely received as a popular Christian leader. Name just one. I'll be standing by. :-)

      By the way, you may not "think" the so-called Peace Sign is satanic. That doesn't change the fact that it DOES have an explicit occult origin. Don't know what else to tell you. Lots of people in the church world these days with 'super-cool' occult tats and jewelry (etc.). It's unfortunate.

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    2. me too brother, if they were there wouldn't have benn so many saved people in christ on their concerts and anointing people. God bless.

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    3. What made you think people were "saved" at a concert? You're not familiar with the concept of "being swept up in the emotions of the moment"? Lots of 'fair weather followers' show up to these things...and by Monday morning are back to their old ways.

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    4. Stacy:

      Satanists LIE. A lot. Even to each other, and especially to Christians. Why? Because satanists value deceit as a Christian values honesty. Remember, they worship satan, the father of lies. So don't expect a satanist to own up to their deceit while active in the occult. Occult means "hidden", after all. I understand you wanting to give the benefit of the doubt, but please heed Scripture: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." ~ 1 John 4:1 (KJB). I believe that verse describes, in a nutshell, what Matt is attempting to remind us as Christians to do...discern wolves in sheep's clothing.
      The peace sign IS satanic, and is 2,000 yrs old and really is called the Teutonic cross. It is described by a former witch:"It is an ancient and powerful symbol of Antichrist. During the dark ages it was used in Druid Witchcraft and by Satanists of all sorts during the initiation of a new member to their order. They would draw the magic circle and give the initiate a cross. The initiate would then lift the cross and turn it upside down. He would then renounce Christianity in all three dimensions (sic) of time (past, present and future) and break the horizontal pieces downward forming the design of the 'Raven's Foot.' This ugly symbol is nothing short of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. For one to wear or display this symbol is to announce either knowingly or unknowingly that you have rejected Christ. Remember, symbolism is a picture language, and a picture is worth a thousand words.''
      Jesus Christ is our Savior, and every decision, thought, expression or impression we make either glorifies or rejects Him. Any symbol that blasphemes our God should be discarded as the garbage it is.

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    5. Matt thank you for your insights. I have read about the occult for 20 years and you do have a valid points you raise on all the subjects and people mentioned.
      Most Christians may not want to admit they have been duped. I know thats how i feel. Don't however lose sight of the good news. Jesus brought us salvation and the good news must also be shared on your blogs. Blessings brother.

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    6. Thanks for the good words. I do however present the Gospel in hundreds of ways throughout my book. Particularly in Chapter 10 and in the Conclusion.

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  45. I don't expect this comment to be "Published", and I respect the time and effort you've put into this, but from my perspective all I see is that what you point out as "Symbolism" is mere bologne, I wear checkered shirts all the time, I have lots of pictures where one of my eyes has a shadow, (wearing a Cap, hoodie, etc.) or is focused on one eye, triangles are my favorite shape, the list goes on, the point is id rather be caught dead than being some Satan worshiper, and I feel that alot of what you point out is not actually meant to be.. anything. Conclusively I only really have one question for you, lets say in a hypothetical situation you were to ask any of these folk toby mac for example, if he were a satanic worshiper or had any satanic affiliation, and they gave you an honest to god, No. In their heart, mind and soul they knew that they were never and would never be affiliated with anything satanic. How would you react, how would you feel towards this article, and lastly how would it change you, if at all (hypothetically) knowing you were wrong. -Anon

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    1. Interesting that you expect not to be published. You must not have read any of the above comments. Many, many scathing and opposing views represented. I publish everything except gratuitously insulting stuff.

      The other reason I believe you haven't read any of the reader comments is because...you would have noticed I have thoroughly answered all of your concerns in these previous exchanges. That's OK though! If I get ANY thoughtful responses (such as yours seems to be) I plunge right back in!

      The other problem with your comments is...that you have almost certainly failed to do the 'prep reading' that I link to at the very beginning of this blog article. I think you would then begin to realize that there IS such a thing as a devout Satanist. They are all over the world. They populate mostly the higher levels of society. Read at least Chapter One...and I think you'll begin to see some things.

      You also seem to be precluding the very possibility of devious and diabolically concealed satanic wolves who have infiltrated the flock. But...if you're a Bible student, how could you hold to such an unbiblical view?

      As I have challenged others over and over....if you don't like some of my 'suspects'...then how about YOU putting forward some suspects? Name even one top 'Christian' leader who has fooled the vast majority of folks in the conservative Christian world and who is actually satanic behind the scenes. I'll be standing by. :-)

      As to your question -- it is fatally flawed. If I were to approach a wolf or a sheep of God's flock and ask them if they were a sheep...I would get the same answer from both of them. What good would that 'question' do in discerning a diabolically disguised wolf?

      By the way, people like Mac and Michael W. Smith (and many, many others) HAVE been approached...and they have been either evasive or non-responsive.

      Did you read my other Toby Mac article? Mac was confronted by a large number of people on his own personal Facebook page about his satanic symbols (particularly on his latest album)...and the best he would do is a sort of fuzzy-wuzzy "can't we all just get along" kind of thing. Where was the clear-cut stepping away from all things satanic? Or a direct renunciation/refutation of Lucifer/Satan? Non-existent. Or even merely a clear-cut "Jesus is my Lord and Savior". Mac past on the opportunity. Quite interesting.



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  46. Matt, i am totally in support of your article, people reply telling you to not judge and when you get back to them, it does not matter what you say, it is taken as an angry response. do not expect any better. I am sending you this message to encourage you, to keep up the good work, and remember that your fight is not against blood nor flesh, satan is at work to create division, controversy, and he is the master of twisting words, lying and killing, it seems that the only verse that pops every time someone feels offended by the warnings of the word of God is the "do not judge" verse, what about the warnings, and the commands that deals with exhortation and admonition throughout the whole bible? this artists might have the best heart for God, but let`s remember that many will be deceived in the last days, even the elect, that many will come that day and will call him Lord and he will say:depart from me oh workers of lawlessness, or the false teachers that will creep in the church with evil teachings, warnings are all over, if the deception was obvious satan would not succeed, not one would follow. so if he managed to deceive Adam and Eve that had a close relationship with God and took the third of the angels down with him, who are we to defeat this man but wearing the armor of God? let`s not take this guy lightly. God bless you

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    1. Hey, thanks for your supportive comments. Sorry I missed them at first.

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  47. I think there is a great deal of paranoia going on here. These symbols could be placed by the photographers, the artists who drew the covers or the record label owners if they are, in fact, done on purpose. Satan loves to mimic God. Everything God has done or created, satan has his own version of. So, basically, we are blaming good people for using symbols that belong to God first and that satan has perverted and then we are creating mass hysteria over it and blaming it on God. Can't you see how satan has got into your mind and twisted even that into a paranoid mess for believing this? If you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you will know the difference between what is of Jesus and what is of the devil. You really are wasting your time with this. Jesus is in control and He has already defeated satan. That's all you really need to know.

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    1. Another commenter who has neglected to do the prep reading indicated at the beginning of the article.

      And you haven't read through any of the previous commenters either...not that I really fault you in that case but...you would then realize I have previously addressed each of your arguments. Oh well...here goes again, briefly:

      I completely handle the question about "artists who draw covers" in my suggested prep reading of "Chapter One" linked at the top of this very article. I do an analysis of Michael W. Smith early on in the chapter and discuss that entire aspect.

      Your whole "good people using bad symbols argument"...oy vey. My friend, there ARE Satanists in the world. They DO use occult symbols. Yes, many good people accidentally use established occult symbols. The question is...when a Christian musician (or should we write "Christian"?) depicts a known satanic symbol...is it because he is satanic or because he is unwitting? You are massively begging the question.

      Just how DO we discern satanic wolves who have infiltrated the flock? You make a claim that if you are "filled with the Spirit" you will be able to discern any of these satanic wolves. Okay -- I'll take you up on your challenge:

      The Bible tells us the church has been and always will be infiltrated by diabolically concealed satanic wolves...particularly in the last days. Jesus warns so Himself in the Olivet Discourse. He warns that an entire 'platoon' of satanic "Christian" leaders will completely deceive the vast majority of church-goers in the last days.

      If you don't like my proposed 'suspects list'...then please use your spirit-filling to point out even one of these cleverly concealed satanic wolves, thought by the huge and vast majority of church-goers to be genuinely Christian. I'll be standing by. (What?! You're telling me there is no such thing? Not a single diabolically deceptive wolf at the top levels? So...the Bible is wrong??)

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  48. Hi. Great insight in this article. Lots to learn.
    To all concerned about personal attacks on favored musicians, etc. I think that exposing the devil in the detail is exactly what the devil doesn't want. Perhaps your favorite musicians should not be using words like "god", "lord" and "jesus" for a start. Then we can begin to trust their lure into seemingly all righteousness? The enemy appears as a messenger of light, deceiving potential victims to believe that a devil doesn't exist. So it's not those who are trying to put light into dark areas that we should be concerned about, like the writer of this article, but rather question our own resolve of desire for absolute and incorruptible truth.

    Regards to you all, and keep searching...

    Jason from Cape Town

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  49. Matt, Bro this is coming from a musician who truly understands what Gods intent for modern contemporary christian music is. When he says his word will not fall upon def ears I believe it. Even if these artists are part of occult (which I highly doubt) they are still representing God and spreading his word. And all the signs, they might be signs. Who knows, not you, not me. Besides they don't have full control on there album covers, music videos etc. For all we know they had an idea in there mind of what they wanted looked through a 1000 designs and decided on what looked the best. Listening to Toby mac, Michael W Smith, Third Day Will not condemn, nor alter the path you are walking with God. I believe that God gave them gifts to good and even if somewhere they fell from there paths they are still doing it.

    That being said I understand where you are coming from. As long as your walk with Christ is right and you do your best to further the kingdom of God then keep doing your thing.

    I'll be pray for ya man, interesting article and God bless

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    1. Yours is the first courteous reply I believe I've ever received from a current Toby Mac fan. That may very well say something about Toby Mac, I think. His followers are a motley bunch...in terms of maturity and spirituality. Putting it politely.

      Anyway, all due respect...you didn't do the prep reading I link to at the beginning of the article. Hence you haven't gotten the big picture, I would dare say. I've been researching these "wolves in sheep's clothing" for years. I'm not just shooting from the hip. You're the hundredth person to bring up the matter of how the artist may not have control or be aware of the art on the CD covers. All that was covered in the prep reading.

      You say Smith and Mac are "spreading the word". I don't see it. I've read through dozens upon dozens of their lyrics. Not the slightest chance anyone will ever come to understand the Gospel from their music. I've had a few claim Mac "preaches Christ" at his concerts. If these fans consider his lyrics to be "preaching Christ" then I can understand how they've come under the misimpression he does so at his concerts.

      As far as your idea that no one can know where and when occultists are operating...again, you've walked into the middle of a ten-year long conversation. Ten years of researching wolves who have stealthily infiltrated the flock. There are many of us observing this process.

      In point of fact, occultists DO self-identify, albeit in a sneaky coded fashion. If you break the code (child's play in the age of the Internet with a thousand ex-occultists whistle-blowing out there)...you can read these guys like a book.

      You're kindness and courtesy not withstanding....your observations are a bit flip and shoot-from-the-hip. Maybe read up a bit...my suggested "prep reading" links for a start. At least "Chapter One" of my e-book (linked).

      Brother, there ARE diabolically concealed wolves who have slithered among the sheep. It is predicted and forewarned of in the Good Book. Oddly, you seem to be under the impression there IS no such thing. (?) Have I misunderstood you?

      And if you don't like some of the folks on MY suspect list...feel free to point out YOUR wolf suspect (s). Point to even one diabolically concealed wolf-in-sheep's-clothing unknown to the vast majority of the flock. And I'm not talking about well-known charlatan / money-grubbing TV evangelists!

      You seem conversational enough -- feel free to email me if you'd like go more indepth. I provide my email address all over the place but here it is again -- matttwofour@yahoo.com

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  50. I have run into these occult accusations over the years on various Christian artists and I still find the claims dubious. I know very little about occult symbolism, handshakes, and practices. But I don't think this is a deficiency. I think it dangerous to study too closely the works of the enemy. Better to draw closer to God because it is the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness comprehends it not.

    What most of the occult accusations amounts to is jumping at shadows by over-interpreting a lot of small details. Rather than looking at the really blatant, obvious stuff. I've listened to dc Talk/ Tobymac from the beginning.

    Let me drop an old school lyric on you to analyze. First album I listened to by Tobymac.

    "Call us the heavenbound crew and you can be too
    If you only knew what He did for you
    Christ died, don't ya see to set us free
    Look in the Word unblurred, you can find the key
    Gotta choice to be voiced, receive Him or not"

    First album of his career and he's laying out the gospel message. How is that the occult? dc Talk, 94.
    "So help me God
    To put my faith in You
    So help me God
    Before I come unglued"

    Again, this provides context for what they're about. Blatant, on the nose. Combine that with stopping in concert to read from the word, I just don't see what you are seeing. I believe you are straining for gnats when there is a camel sitting in the water.

    Now I will grant you the lyrics have become more vague since going solo. However, he still does not shy away from talking about his faith in Christ.

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    1. I'll have some comments a bit later. This came in a little late.

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    2. I appreciate that. I suspect after you do, we'll have to back up and talk about a few premises because I suspect that with Tobymac specifically, we're talking about the conclusions rather than the root issues. I have since had a chance to read up to Chapter 7 of your online book (although I must confess I skimmed the 9/11 stuff as I've read it all before and I don't really want to talk abou that.)

      I respect what you are doing. I do believe we should always remain vigilant because the accuser has not slept since the first coming of Christ. But, I do believe caution is needed so that we do not do Satan's work for him. It is no good ripping up the floors of the church, accusing true followers of Christ of being Satanists. That is equally bad.

      Satan comes not only to decieve, but to kill, steal, and destroy. Turning brother against brother and sister against sister is just as harmful as accepting false teaching into the church. Destroying the body of Christ is just as good as deceiving it. (Emphasis on teaching by the way. I think the search for symbols becomes a dangerous game when it is the teachings and actions that we ought to be evaluating according to the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Not whether Michael W Smith's hair happened to form a three-pronged fork.)

      Anyways, I look forward to your response, brother (I hope you consider me your brother as I believe you are my brother in Christ.)

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    3. OK so...I was going to complain that you hadn't done the recommended prep reading which I link to at the top of this blog article, but...wow, you're all the way through chapter seven?? My goodness.

      I guess I have to say you're the first guy who has actually read that far into my little thesis and who then HASN'T come back to me with "wow, I REALLY need to go back to the drawing boards and re-think everything I thought I knew about the world around me...including the church world".

      You seem to be having a reaction far short of that. As such, I'm pretty close to stumped in your regard. In my perception (which is far from perfect, I'm sure) anyone who can read through just Chapter One (as an example) and not feel the need to go back and reflect and possibly re-think their old familiar world views...I really don't know what to say. No disrespect.

      You've read through the whole "Michael W. Smith" section in ch.1 and the whole mini-tutorial I tried to present there...with all the occult symbolism slithered into corporate logos and all the comparative evidence with Smith's CD covers??

      And you're STILL equating my efforts with "ripping up the floors of the church"? Bro, that's a head-shaker.

      In conjunction with that, another thing I would consequently observe is...you seem not to recognize the biblical reality of diabolically deceptive "wolves in sheep's clothing"...therefore you seem (and I might be misunderstanding you somewhat) be 'outlawing' all pointing out of evidence of wolves among the sheep.

      If a guy puts a great big fat satanic "all-seeing-eye" symbol on his DC Talk CD cover ten years ago...then puts another big fat satanic "all-seeing-eye" on his "Eye On It" CD ten years later...I'm going to point it out AND I am going to express concern. Profound concern. Especially when there is a huge eruption of controversy on his own personal Facebook page in which dozens of his fans are expressing concerns about placing a well-known 5000-year-old satanic symbol on his CD...AND the best response he can muster is a condescending, admonishing "can't we all just get along".

      At the very least, are we not talking about a HUGE "appearance of evil"? I have not declared anyone to be satanic. I have not declared anyone to be a wolf. That is YOUR charge. But it isn't accurate. I am simply pointing out the numerous occult indicators and expressing concern.

      AND I am putting it in the context of the Olivet Discourse where Jesus warns there will emerge a very large number of spectacularly deceptive satanic "Christian" leaders (i.e. wolves) who will successfully deceive the vast majority of the church world.

      But because the Olivet Discourse has been systematically obscured by wolves and their dupes over the last hundred years or so, virtually no Bible students have any meaningful awareness of this absolutely critical (for our times) Bible passage (Matt.24/25 -- Mark 13 -- Luke 21).

      I would also ask you to examine the potential illogic of your position that...if I upset a brother when I inform him of his favorite musician's (pastor's, author's, etc.) possible wolf status, I am "turning brother against brother".

      In other words...if YOU were to trying to extract a beloved friend from the clutches of, say Robert Tilton (infamous money-grubbing TV evangelist) just before your friend sent in his $1000 and greatly upsetting your friend in the process...are YOU now "turning brother against brother"?? According to your definition (as I understand it)...yes, you are! You should leave that brother alone and let hem send his $1000.

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    4. A few more thoughts --

      Again, a little more head-shaking on my part -- when you see all the evidence with Smith in my blog...the matching runes on his CDs years apart, the child's eye subtly placed into a triangular corner...the re-appearing "Tyr" rune on the Rocketown logo, and year after year of an endless parade of explicitly satanic rock bands with their satanic lyrics and band members hailing Satan in their interviews...yet after reading through all that you're still chiding with cheeky remarks about the pronged hair...and still admonishing me about "destroying the body of Christ"? Am I "doing Satan's work for him" by warning people about Rocketown? Mama mia!

      I sure hope you never have to experience somebody walking up to you and saying -- "I hate to say you're doing Satan's work but..." -- lol.

      And you make variations of the same argument in both your posts...about how we're better served studying the Bible and not studying the enemy. You may have missed my "football team watching football films" illustration there in chapter 1? Look for it if you have the time.

      We should ALWAYS study the enemy's ways. Not to the exclusion of Bible study and prayer, of course. But Christians can walk and chew gum, last I checked.

      In the Olivet Discourse (along with innumerable other passages about studying the ways of the enemy) Jesus describes all the spectacular deceptions of the last days and repeatedly emphasizes "watch out that none of these deceive you".

      In reference to your Mac lyric quotes, I would argue you don't understand that wolf pastors will preach sermons directly from the Bible. Granted, there are subtle 'poison pills' that are thrown in but they'll mention "Jesus" and the whole 9. What I found interesting and a bit of a twist with both Mac and Smith is the sheer length they seem to go to in NOT ever mentioning Jesus. Almost like a game or a contest. Even your favorite quote only mentions "Christ" and occultists have their own resurrecting "Christ" - the Phoenix who rises from the ashes. When wolves refer to God or Christ, they can mean something completely different.

      Now I am not saying your quotes prove Mac is a wolf but...he has dug himself a hole a mile deep...and one lyric from a quarter century ago when he was first getting in the CCM business and trying to get his foot in the door...does not absolve him of 25 years of Jesus-less, Gospel-less lyrics. Apparently, even you cannot find a reference to "Jesus"! There was one co-written song with "Lecrae" in which Lecrae mentioned Jesus on an actual Mac CD (Wow -- let's have an altar call!).

      And as I said, every single wolf pastor or teacher currently on the scene today...every last one of them "reads from the Scriptures" during services.

      I would argue that your way of discerning the bad guys versus the good guys ("hey, he read from the scriptures!") in the church world falls far short. Just my view. I mean...what is it we THINK satanic CCM artists are going to do -- sacrifice goats onstage or something? Read from the Satanic Bible? The Devil is more subtle than that.

      There is a 'big picture' strategy I believe you're missing -- there is a HUGE apostasy movement currently underway...and it goes FAR beyond CCM. You must've seen the evidence in chapter two regarding Kay Arthur, one of the most popular teachers in mainstream Evangelicalism?

      This satanic infiltration strategy is spread far and wide across organized Evangelicalism...with the ultimate goal of drawing millions into apostasy and straight through the gates of Hell.

      Gotta go for now.

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    5. Hello again Matt,

      "I guess I have to say you're the first guy who has actually read that far into my little thesis and who then HASN'T come back to me with "wow, I REALLY need to go back to the drawing boards and re-think everything I thought I knew about the world around me...including the church world"

      This is a good thing. The Scriptures says to test all things, which is what I am doing :) I'm sure you'll agree that as Christians, we are not to be tossed back and forth by the waves, blown here and there by every wind of teaching. Any teaching by man must be test in light of the Scriptures, even this blog.

      "be 'outlawing' all pointing out of evidence of wolves among the sheep."
      I believe I was clear that I believe you concern to look for wolves in sheep clothing is important. "I respect what you are doing. I do believe we should always remain vigilant because the accuser has not slept since the first coming of Christ." But let me be clearer, I believe that wolves do come in sheeps clothing. Where I think you are in error is relying on extra-biblicular criteria for determining false teachers, when the Bible is quite clear on how to identify them.

      "I have not declared anyone to be satanic. I have not declared anyone to be a wolf. That is YOUR charge. But it isn't accurate." With all due respect, but I am not sure how this has become my charge. "Satanists and Masons (many times, these two are one and the same category) have created a huge variety of modified "square and compass" presentations. I provide examples all throughout my "Wolves" blog/book. We've already seen how Toby Mac has previously flashed Masonic indicators." What am I to make of this except that you think Tobymac has both occultic indicators and he is a wolf (given that you are referring back to your 'Wolves' blog. You've left me one blank to fill, but that doesn't make it my argument.

      Let me be clear about the 'devil's work' comment. (I am sorry if I gave offense, but it is difficult to know how to word such serious matters.)
      If someone says they are in Christ, but are a false teacher, then it is right and good to proclaim that truth (Jude 3-4, 2 Peter)
      If someone is truly in Christ, but we say they are occultic, Satanic, etc, then we are slanderers and we are splitting the church.

      My comment was not to deny that there are false teachers, far from it! But simply to say that deception isn't Satan's only game. Turning the brethern on each other with false accusations. Destruction works as well as deception.

      My concern is that we do take the Olivet Discourse as licence to undercut true Christians for fear of being deceived by the by most deceptive deception. In that case we fall out of the frying pan and into the fire. But there are false teacher and they should be renounced. Your Robert Tilton example comes in happily. He is very clearly a false teacher, but how do we know? Not by iconography and hand shake analysis, but by his words and his actions. He preaches another gospel and preys upon the poor and the needy for personal gain.

      to be continued

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    6. part 2

      In regards to the lyrical analysis. Would I be correct in surmising that you do not have any issue with the lyrics I provided? That is, your issue with Tobymac is some other issue and not these lyrics.

      Your one issue seems to be the lack of 'Jesus' when referring to Christ.
      But let me give my own analysis and see if you agree or disagree:
      "Call us the heavenbound crew and you can be too"
      They (Toby, Michael, and Kevin) are destined for heaven and the listener can as well.

      "If you only knew what He did for you"
      Set's up the inevitable 'well how can I be bound for heaven" question

      "Christ died, don't ya see to set us free"
      Christ died to set us free

      "Look in the Word unblurred, you can find the key"
      Look in the Bible and you will find the answer

      "Gotta choice to be voiced, receive Him or not"
      You have a choice to be spoken- whether you will receive Christ's death.

      This is John 3:16 or Romans 10:8-9. This is no 'poison pill.' This is the gospel message.

      The 'it could be another Christ' protestation cannot stand in any useful fashion without disallowing most hymns. (Or do you- I don't know. Amazing Grace mentions 'Lord' and 'God' which could be any lord or god.) Even putting in Jesus doesn't solve the 'it could be another' problem. Jesus was a relatively common name. We don't even have to look outside the Bible to find a Bar Jesus (that is Elymas.)

      I do agree that a false teacher isn't just going to be sacrificing goats on stage. But we have to be careful that we don't mistake genuine Christians as deep cover agents of the devil. I hope you agree with me, that, that is a very serious mistake! Sometimes the gospel message is just the gospel message and not Satan's masterplan. (In fact, I think most times the gospel message is just the gospel message.)

      Think of Luke 9:49-50. "'Master,'" said John, 'we saw a man driving out demons in you rname and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.' 'Do not stop him,' Jesus said, 'for whoever is not against you is for you.'"

      These are amazing words by Jesus and ones worth thinking about when trying to root out the devil's deception. Which don't get me wrong, he does deceive and we need to watch out. My concern is that we don't lead to a scorched earth worldview when looking around at fellow Christians. That we can never truly trust other Christians because they might be sleeper agents for the devil.

      So far, you'll no doubt have noted I have not at all dealt with all the occultic indicators you presented. But I wanted to clarify a few points from your comments before I move on. (In particular, I want to focus on your Chapter 1 and the idea of studying the enemy's ways because I think they are at the heart of our disagreement over Tobymac. I could give you more lyrics to analyze, but I suspect we won't get much further without dealing with some underlying presuppositions.)

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    7. Wait a minute -- you're implying I've asked you to jump on my bandwagon prematurely. No such request was made. So I go back to my original observation -- the blasé reaction is for me very, very odd. You're not showing ANY signs that you're reflecting on the information.

      I would argue you are precisely wrong and precisely unbiblical when you say we should not look for (what you refer to as) "extra-biblical" evidence. To the contrary -- the Scriptures instruct us to look at the words AND the actions of an individual in determining their character, Christian or otherwise. Not sure how you've overlooked that.

      It's a bit amusing how you don't see the gigantic double standard where you breezily give yourself license to categorize Tilton as "bad" while others must not express concern about Mac's "satanic allegiance' signaling.

      As an inhabitant of mainstream Evangelicalism (so I am assuming) you would have a very, very difficult time distinguishing any of his doctrinal beliefs from yours, ironically. He teaches a 'prosperity gospel' which virtually all Evangelical mainstreamers also believe, albeit in a slightly different shade. America's prosperity is explained in that God is more pleased with American Christians than other Christians. Same basic thing Tilton is teaching. ALL of it is false -- God prospers NO ONE based on superior spirituality. Tilton AND mainstream Evangelicalism propose this false teaching.

      No, it has been his horrendous BEHAVIOR first and foremost that caught my attention...along WITH the false prosperity gospel doctrine. Although...as I said, his false teaching is the same believed by 99.9% of the mainstream.

      Again, you're making cheeky references...this time to "handshakes" based on your assumption that "golly gosh, who really knows about any of this secretive nonsense and thus who could really derive any messages or meanings?".

      You can assume all you like. But this is the age of Information and the Internet, and with a tiny bit of effort and reading, there are dozens of ex-occultists and occult researchers out there who are exposing all the communication techniques of satanists.

      If you saw a preacher raise up a Nazi "Sieg Heil" salute from behind the pulpit, it would be no more blatant than putting a gigantic "all-seeing-eye" on your CD cover...to those of us who have spent the two minutes to look up the information. The only questions left for Mac are...is there a wider context? And yes there is -- the CD cover ten years ago...all the weird one eye poses...the Masonic indicators...the bizarre, condescending non-answer when confronted directly...the fact that his lyrics are Jesus-less and Gospel-less...and his gleeful endorsement of mass murder in the song "Ill-M-I". Not to mention his claim to be a member of the Illuminati...the very Antichrist cabal which now seeks global domination. But you'd have to understand 9/11 (among other things) to get all that!

      Mac doesn't teach ANY Scripture so...whatever is in his lyrics are a de facto false gospel. If he were secular, I wouldn't have such a complaint. But he postures as a CCM artist.

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    8. As far as the lyrics -- first of all, when everything this guy has ever said about the Gospel in 25 years as a CCM artist can fit on a bumper sticker...and you have no concerns or reservations about such a bizarre imbalance...that's a disconnect for me.

      Secondly, the Gospel does not fit on a bumper sticker nor in a couple of passing phrases. I find it interesting how you don't see how you and Mac are happily quagmired in 'Christian-ese'. To you, you think this is a slam-dunk -- "Christ died to set us free - who wouldn't understand that??" (your thinking).

      The unchurched who know no church-speak are asking "why would He die?...to set us free from what?...why would I want to be set free? I don't feel not-free!" On and on the questions can go. There IS no "gospel presentation" in this lyric. It requires the preaching and teaching of the Bible.

      And you're missing my meaning with the term "poison-pilled". I would argue most or almost all "Gospel preaching" these days is poison-pilled without even involving wolves directly. There is a huge apostasy plot headed our way at 100mph and no one in the church world is being warned. The devil (and his minions) don't care HOW much you pray or read the Bible, as long as they see their apostasy plot tracking. As long as they can keep church people unaware of the emerging plot...with all these pre-positioned satanic wolves which Jesus warns of and which you are in disagreement about.

      And Jesus has predicted this plot will be hugely successful...with the vast, vast majority of the church world capitulating and splitting the gates of Hell wide open. Lots of 'fair weather' followers of Jesus, praying lots of prayers, reading lots of Scripture and attending a lot of CCM concerts...who aren't going to make it.

      The biggest problem for you here is...Jesus has prophesied in the Olivet Discourse (and the Bible teaches throughout) that there WILL be satanic wolves. If you don't like my suspects...feel free to point out even one diabolically concealed wolf unknown to virtually the entire church world. I'll be standing by. Do us the favor of putting out the warning.

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    9. Matt,

      Let me see if I can find some common ground.

      "To the contrary -- the Scriptures instruct us to look at the words AND the actions of an individual in determining their character, Christian or otherwise. Not sure how you've overlooked that."
      I actually agree with this. 100%. If you'll look at what I said about Tilton, I said "by his words and his actions." Note 'actions,' I also provided an example of his terrible actions- preying on the needy and the weak for personal gain. II Peter 2:1-3 describes this despicable behaviour. Perhaps, I was being flippant about handshakes, but handshake analysis is entirely unneccessary when his sermons and actions lay it out clearly. But, I do agree we should watch out for their actions.

      As a side note, if we are to continue I will do my best to not make assumptions about your position, but I would ask the same of you. Whether or not I am part of mainstream Evangelicm, please do not ascribe positions I do not hold. I am not American, I don't believe in American Exceptionalism (or Canadian Exceptionalism for that matter.) I do not believe we were promised wealth on earth. I believe God promised to care for us (like the birds of the air and flowers in the field.) I believe we are to be content in all things, whether rich or poor. I believe Jesus promised us that we will have trouble, but we are to take heart because he has over-come the world. If the first disciples are any indicator, death by persecution for his name sake is a very likely outcome.

      "The only questions left for Mac are...is there a wider context?"
      Indeed. And I would suggest looking back at the old dc Talk lyrics with a critical, but not suspicious eye. (Lyrics mind you.) You complained about my not finding enough Jesus references. Let me assure you, there are far more- from sampling the Sunday School song 'Jesus Loves me' to declaring that he will continue to use the name of Jesus even if dj's won't play it.

      I do wish to understand your position, however. Not enough Jesus references is a bad indicator. Do you use that same criteria on the hymns? I never heard the answer to that question.

      Furthermore, it seems the bar keeps sliding. I find you some lyrics, doesn't mention 'Jesus' or then it is too simple. Not all songs can do all things, every song must focus down on a few things. I will continue to agree that his later lyrics became more vague, but even then he makes known the name of God. (Jehovah in Made to Love.) But, I do not think you can reduce the majority of dc Talk era songs to bumper stickers. Or if you can, then I don't think lyrical analysis is giving enough credit to what is actually in the song. Just be can, doesn't mean you have done a servicable job.

      " It requires the preaching and teaching of the Bible. "
      Amen, brother. CCM is not our daily bread. The Bible is. But that doesn't make CCM inherently bad. We could raise the bar- I believe there are a number of Reformed Rappers that are doing just that, driving home theologically significant lyrics.

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    10. part 2

      I know I keep drawing from old dc Talk- mostly because I believe that sets the foundation of what Tobymac is all about. But here is some more recent stuff.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM9yodm0vWw
      Tobymac, not a preacher, but a little preaching

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPKGnE4gDJw
      Tobymac's Testimony <-- Listen to this one for sure

      For your last few paragraphs, I will have to deal with separately.

      But, I would like to know about another of my previous questions. Do you believe Satan also comes to kill, steal, and destroy? Do you believe that for Satan, turning the true Christians against one another is just as good as deceiving them? I agree that not all who call "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. But do you believe that mistakenly identifying a true believer as an agent of Satan to be a great tragedy. (We're talking in theory here, not specifically about any individual CCM artist.)

      Thanks for your responses so far.
      I hope it is mutually profitable. (And yet, again I've delayed talking about the content in your Chapter 1. One of these days.)

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    11. Comments on your Part 1 -- OK so...you agree about words AND actions...but elsewhere you said it was wrong to look for "extra-biblical" indicators. Bit of a conflict there. But if we agree on this aspect, fine by me!

      I see no big problem with temporary assumptions, especially if I specifically concede it to BE an assumption. You have now corrected my assumption -- no harm, no foul. In fact, I am now theorizing (or whatever we want to call it) that, being a Canadian Christian, you may very well have leftist/socialist leanings. The disdain many Canadians have for hugely fascist Big Bully USA (the way I see America anyway) tends to add even more to their liberal leanings, I would think. Then again, I may be assuming incorrectly again. So set me straight and...no harm, no foul!

      OK so...there's a Jesus Loves Me sampling and a...what? A "declaring" of something? This is something in his lyrics? Remember, you're talking to a guy who looked through innumerable Mac lyrics. Dozens and dozens. I might be wrong but...I do believe I looked through every single Toby Mac lyric (not DC Talk though).

      I don't know what you mean by "the bar is sliding". My story has remained the same -- there is an extraordinary absence of "Jesus" references or Gospel presentations in Mac's entire catalog. Even very few references to God. You're bringing up stuff about hymn writers. Your comparison is mind-boggling. The old hymns have spectacular and explicit presentations of doctrinal and biblical truth...and they were followed by a sermon. Good grief!

      And you're missing the CONTEXT in any event. An analysis of his lyrics is only one small part of the picture. All the satanic signaling and symbolism are the other part of the context. There are plenty of wolf pastors who refer to "Jesus" countless times...and read endlessly from the Scriptures. Tilton, for example. Wolves aren't forbidden from referring to Jesus. I have only said it seems to be a game with a few of these suspect CCM'ers. A contest to see how little content they can have and still have Christian kids lined up around the block to hear 2 hours of Jesus-less, Gospel-less music.

      I still can hardly believe your reasoning -- "hey, I found a 'Jesus' reference in a DC Talk song from 25 years ago!!" Wow - only 25 years ago? I feel a revival coming on.

      And I've never said "CCM is inherently bad". I'm wondering at this point, just how badly you may be misunderstanding me. I enjoy all kinds of CCM.

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    12. Part 2 -- Yes, it was interesting to see Mac referring to Jesus a couple of times while in concert. I had asked anyone to send me concert video of him doing so if such existed. It doesn't change anything for me with regard to his massive display of occult signals and symbol display. I was just interested in how far he or MWSmith push this whole Jesus-less thing. Plenty of wolves mention "Jesus" endlessly. Benny Hinn and Robert Tilton mention Jesus 100 times a minute. You've really missed my point.

      And all wolves will cough up a "testimony". Yes, I had previously seen a different video similar to this...with a backstage audience. I'm sure we can hear the angels sing when, for example, Peter Popov (or some other wolf) is giving his "testimony". Remember -- it's "words AND actions". And given my pre-established suspicions about the guy, I also see some potential manipulation -- he seems to beef up the "Jesus" references for this leadership group, promising them he is going to deliver Jesus to the concert audience that night....which is then exactly what he DOESN'T do, given his lyrics.

      You ask me about "mistakenly identifying a true believer as an agent of Satan". That is essentially a false accusation. And a kind of re-run of the old classic "have you stopped beating your wife?". I see no need to clarify that I'm against wrong-doing. Good grief. I can only re-quote my own words:

      "If a guy puts a great big fat satanic "all-seeing-eye" symbol on his DC Talk CD cover ten years ago...then puts another big fat satanic "all-seeing-eye" on his "Eye On It" CD ten years later...I'm going to point it out AND I am going to express concern. Profound concern."

      I express grave concerns about CCM'ers who utilize satanic symbols and signals...and I will continue to do so. Dozens of his fans expressed grave concerns on his personal Facebook page when he published the cover art for the new CD. You're simply not up to speedon the reality of occultism and occult symbols.

      Falling -- there ARE occultists in the world. They DO utilize occult symbols to indicate their allegiance. Many of these occultists HAVE infiltrated the church world...just as Jesus describes in the Olivet discourse...and as a matter of basic biblical fact. Yet you do not believe it, for all intents and purposes. You cannot fit it in your mind that there are diabolically concealed wolves infiltrating the church world. If I'm wrong about you....then point out even one diabolically concealed wolf who is fooling virtually the entire church world, just as Jesus explicitly details will be the case in His Discourse. He says an entire PLATOON of satanic "Christian" leaders will fool the church world. This thing goes far beyond Mac

      Mac is placing satanic symbols on his CD covers...and with the Eye On It CD, he has satanic symbolism and signaling, front AND back. On the back, he poses himself identically to Smith's Tyr posture on his 1998 Christmas album...head lowered, arms spread.

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    13. Falling:

      It is important that you consider that not only was Lucifer the highest of the angels before his fall, he was also created w/exceptional musical abilities:
      "....the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created." -Ezekiel 28:13

      "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols [stringed instruments]: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" -Isaiah 14:11-12

      Therefore, knowing that satan has musical abilities & that his desire is to be worshipped, it should be obvious to us as Christians that satan will definitely use whatever means necessary to usher us away from faith in Christ, because we already know satan has the same plan for us all--he wants to become residents of Hell. It would NOT make sense if he did NOT use his musical talents to sabotage salvation.

      And who would he delight most in deceiving? You better believe it is Christians. satan hates ALL people, because we are made in the image of God, & because we are fallen, but can STILL find salvation in Christ Jesus. satan already knows the lost are hellbound, and will remain as such unless they are saved. Therefore any attempts to glorify God (be it through Scripture, church, religion or music) is an avenue he will ALWAYS attack as we have SEEN already: he attacks Scripture by subtly changing God's Word w/all these new perVersions like the NIV, ESV, NASB & NKJV, which re-write the true preserved Word of God in English...the KJV. he infiltrates the church with wolves in sheeps clothing & est. the WCC to brainwash believers into accepting a one-world religion(satanism). he uses man-made false religion (Catholicism, JW, Mormonism, etc.) to lead seekers of Christ into a works over faith (which we know NEVER saves) path to destruction, so WHY would you be naive enough to believe that he would not attempt to subvert the worship of Christ through music??
      "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices." 2 Corinthians 2:11

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    14. Part 1 -- The gentleman ("Falling") is apparently not coming back. Not sure if he took offense at something. Or possibly just became bored. In any case, the above discussion illustrates the difficulty of trying to explain these matters to someone who insists on isolating one puzzle piece and having that one piece explained to him...apart from the 'big picture'. A very difficult proposition.

      Falling's thinking is -- where do I see a fire-breathing "satanist"? Mac even uses the word "Jesus" once every ten years. I explain there are many wolves who refer to Jesus endlessly. He may have become frustrated with that argument.

      I think his thinking THEN is...even if Mac is the shallowest CCM artist in history, that still falls FAR short of "satanic". So WHAT if the guy's lyrics are virtually useless and content-less. That doesn't even come CLOSE to making him "satanic".

      Of course, there is the additional and awkward fact of Mac's dozens of occult symbols and signalings. We never got that far in our discussion...as to how Falling is writing all of that off. I would have been curious to hear how in the world he would go about doing that!




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    15. Part 2 -- Understanding just how wolves go about their business...is where the 'big picture' comes in. Falling does not understand the Olivet Discourse. Nor has he probably ever studied it in depth. I am assuming this...given his inability to understand the subtle strategies and tactics of wolves who have infiltrated CCM....not to mention the rest of the church world.

      According to Jesus, the vast, vast majority in the church world are going to be shocked into paralysis when the Antichrist explodes onto the world scene with the force of 100,000 nuclear bombs (figuratively speaking). The role of all these top-level infiltrating "Christian" wolves...is to rock the cradle. Keep the church world population snoozing, napping, slumbering. Comfortably numb until the arrival of the Antichrist, at which time (as Jesus predicts) the vast majority will panic, capitulate, take the mark of the beast, and proceed to split the gates of hell wide open.

      If people like Mac were TRUE spiritual leaders, they would be sounding the warnings from the rooftops -- 'the return of the King is at hand!" and "there IS no PreTrib rapture which is going to whisk us away before 'all the bad stuff happens'".

      That is one of the absolute keys to the future "great apostasy" of which Jesus prophesies in the Olivet Discourse-- everyone living this comfortable cocoon-ish Christian lifestyle...with all these major Christian events...all these super-churches...with the low lights, the padded seats, hypnotic, dreamy, sleepy music (whether the worship music in these churches or the music at these big CCM concerts). Almost the entire church world in a state of sleepy, comfy hypnosis.

      These wolves (and their dupes) act as pied pipers. Rocking the cradle. Keeping people completely unaware and unprepared...just as Jesus warns of in Matthew 25 regarding the last days. He says the "virgins"" who make no preparation will miss out on the return of the King. Those who have no preparatory mindset are in very grave danger of splitting the gates of Hell wide open. It's not that folks "lose" their salvation. It's just that many will turn out not to have been the "real deal" to begin with!

      Again, the difficulty of understanding the world you live in and the signs of the times...when you are excluding from view (as this guy "Falling" does) such things as the truth behind 9/11. I knew we were in for a rocky road when Falling said he was "tired" of talking about 9/11. That's code for "I don't care if thousands of credentialed architects and engineers are rejecting the "official" story as laughable...and that finding any OTHER credentialed experts who happily SUPPORT the official story is like finding hen's teeth...I still want to believe in the official story".

      I know from personal experience...it is very difficult to leave the Truman Show dome. It is hard to leave the familiar comfort zone. But the Bible says "lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near". We have to wrench our eyes away from the old familiar things...and prepare ourselves for an unspeakably fantastic and exciting eternal future. In Matthew 25, five of the 'virgins" did...and the other five didn't.

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    16. Yes, I have not found solid Biblical evidence of a pre-trib rapture either. In fact, 2nd Thess. 2:3 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Thessalonians-2-3/) makes it quite clear that we WILL witness the coming of the antiChrist. I don't understand how pre-tribbers can overlook this, unless they are reading a re-written Bible version by these new occult publishers. Those versions are NOT the Word of God and are CREATED to lead people away from the truth into the lap of the satanic world order.

      Christ never promised we would have it easy...He assured that we would be persecuted for following Him, because He was persecuted first. Almost all of Jesus's disciples were martyred, so how can we justify escaping similar circumstances?
      When I became born-again, I knew it would not mean I would have it easy, and if I have to face death as the penalty for proclaiming Jesus Christ as my Lord & Savior, I am fully prepared to do so.

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    17. Hi Matt,

      I appreciate your responses. I will reply in a bit, but I sometimes need to take a break from forum discussions and I got a little busy. I will try to reply soon.

      But as for my politics (which I'm not sure entirely matters.) I think the spectrum sits very differently from the States compared to most everywhere else- I can't say there are very large Libertarian movements and so if that is what constitutes the Right, then I guess I'm left. But in Canadian politics, I vote right: Conservative.

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    18. I'm very appreciative of your willingness to dialogue with me despite our differences. I've just come away from a political forum where even the moderators were aggressive, even hostile to my preliminary, establishing questions even before I got to even make an actual statement. The contrast coming back here is a relief.

      No contradiction. I always have said words and actions. I just don't think handshakes and lone eyes are the indicators that the Bible points us to as the primary methods of discerning false teachers. We obviously disagree on that last sentence, but we both agree on words and actions.

      "not DC Talk though"
      You should. Because you cannot give a servicable analysis without doing so and be able to say this: "hey, I found a 'Jesus' reference in a DC Talk song from 25 years ago" That sort of statement cannot stand, given a reasonable understanding of the dc Talk era. (Or this, for that matter: "Mac even uses the word "Jesus" once every ten years.") I would flip it around and say you cannot find a dc Talk album that DOESN'T talk about Jesus.

      So you would say that hymns can say deep doctrinal truth even without 'Jesus' mentioned explicitly, by name. That they are not suddenly talking about a false god because the specific name of Jesus was not used.

      I will agree that the old hymns are spectacular- the ones we have stood the test of time and the chaff blew away, so the concentration of quality songs is very high. But I would argue that the use of the name 'Jesus' can be AN indicator, but not the only indicator on whether the song is speaking Biblical truth or a false gospel.

      For the 'mistakenly identifying a true believer.' I simply wanted to be on record, saying that we cannot go all-in, being concerned about not being taken in, that we turn on each other. We must watch out for both deceptions, not just the one. Wolf in sheep's clothing is one deception. Brothers deceived to think other brothers are the enemy is another deception. (Recall the Pharisees accused Jesus of working for Beelzebub.) I simply wanted to raise that idea as a point of caution.

      But as it keeps coming back to the symbols, then it appears any number of lyrical analysis, testimonies, will not be sufficient to establish Tobymac as a true believer, and not a Satanist, I suppose it's time we try to tackle the elephant in the room: Chapter 1 and symbols.

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    19. Regarding Chapter 1.
      My first question is what do you mean by Satanists, occultists, and Luciferians. Do you mean active worshippers of Satan? Or do you mean all unregenerate believers in the John 8:44 sense. Or something else. This may seem like a way too simple of a question, but I want to be sure we're talking the same thing.

      Second. In what way is avoiding an indepth study or our spiritual enemy 'unbiblical.' In the sense that the Bible is silent on whether or not we should study Satan and his strategies? But whether yes or no, how much weight can we give it compared to the indicators the Bible does give us vs the Bible's silence.

      Third. Do you, like me, believe in the sufficiency of Scriptures? I assume you do, but if so, then what does it mean to you? As you say, the Bible is not meant to be a TV repair manual. If you wanted to learn coding, then a book on Java or C# would be in order.

      But do you not see a difference between knowledge gained by investigating the properties of God's visible world (or knowledge of sub-creation, applying said principles) and knowledge of the invisible realm? (Our struggle is not against flesh and blood?) The first may be investigated using the reasoning given to all humans as his image bearers. Does not the second require divine, special revelation?

      Fourth, in studying the enemies strategies is there not a distinct possibility that a) they are deceived and/or b) will deceive as to their strategies. Why ever should the Great Deceiver and his followers speak truth about themselves?

      Fifth. Is it possible that symbols may have different meanings at different times and places? For instance, you have already intimated that 'Praise God' and "Praise the Lord" may not mean the same thing for all people, everywhere (hence the importance of specifiying Jesus.) If words may have varying meaning, may not symbols as well?

      Some initial questions on Chapter 1, which should hopefully help shine some light on our disagreement over Tobymac.

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    20. Completely forgot this question as it was based in the Introduction:
      "Every serious Bible student should know full well the very plainly stated fact of Scripture that...there exists a satanic conspiracy to gain global domination. It is Satan's supreme objective."

      Could I have a little Scripture exegesis on this point? Specifically, on whether prophecy fulfillment necessarily requires global domination. (Would I be correct in surmising this would be a One World Government.)

      Also Biblical support for this idea:
      ", involving real-life human "agents of darkness"...explicit devotees of Lucifer, mostly among the rich and powerful of this world, who are making a very conscious, deliberate, premeditated effort to establish a kingdom of darkness on earth... "

      I'm not saying you're wrong or that I disagree. But I want to see where you see the Scriptures point to this.

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    21. "If people like Mac were TRUE spiritual leaders, they would be sounding the warnings from the rooftops -- 'the return of the King is at hand!" and "there IS no PreTrib rapture which is going to whisk us away before 'all the bad stuff happens'".

      Incidently, he already did that:

      "Well I walk through this world livin' day to day
      I see the people, hear what they have to say
      Take a look at the ethics, morals, and goals
      Makin' gods outta men that rock 'n roll
      Like Sodom and Gomorrah, this world will fall
      A total destruction, destiny of all
      Who have mocked the name of Jesus, the Savior and Lord
      In the battle of Armageddon and a two-edged sword
      Satan in a day he will never forget
      When the King hurls him into a bottomless pit
      So keep your eyes on the Lord, don't follow human ways
      Cause it's written in the Word, these are the final days

      Final days
      Change your ways
      Final days


      The final days is what my song's about
      Words so intense I might have to shout
      Some might play hard and say I'm wack
      But I'm talkin' about truth not egomaniac
      And as long as they listen, they won't be dissin'
      Cause rappin' final days is a serious mission
      Just so they learn, I will stand stern
      I hope my words make ya start to churn
      I'm concerned with the life that you're livin' now
      Your's ego's so bad that ya can't even bow
      To the Master of all, Creator of creation
      I'm talkin' bout God no misinterpretation
      Rappin' hard for the One who deserves the best
      Speakin' rhymes that will try and put your heart to test
      Don't stop and stare me down with that b-boy haze
      Get busy, cause these are the final days

      Final days
      Change your ways
      Final days

      The words of my rap are not what you think
      But so secure I suggest you take 'em to the bank
      Or better yet take these words to heart
      Don't wait until tomorrow, now's the time to start
      I'm not askin' for your money or rappin' for a fee
      Think upon the words is my only plea
      Cause this song's about to end, your time is runnin' thin
      And now that my time is up, it's time for you to begin
      To do this job is my only request
      A basic rap exam puts MC's to test
      Spread these words like a fire ablaze
      Cause I'm tellin' ya we're livin' in the final days

      Final days
      Change your ways
      Final days "

      Probably my favourite old school rap of dc Talk, even if most would probably say the style hasn't held up.

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    22. Quite frankly, it doesn't MATTER how glibly you refer to "handshakes and lone eyes". Occultism IS a reality and when someone signals a salute of allegiance to Satan by means of one of these pre-established symbols...that IS an "act". An act of huge and horrible evil. To signal allegiance to Satan...is absolutely monstrous...and your strange and dubious clinging to (willful?) ignorance about these matters is neither here nor there. We may be quickly coming to the end here. Your inability as a Bible believer (are you not?) to connect simple dots, like Pat Robertson's hugely disturbing and obviously secretive Masonic/occultic signaling on the cover of Newsweek...is, for me, just getting a bit, well...silly. Sorry, bro.

      And you say these things are not indicators of "false teachers". Who is talking about "false teachers"? I'm talking about satanic agents..."wolves in sheep's clothing".

      As far as politics, I am anti-right and anti-left. Picking a spot on the standard "political spectrum" is merely to choose between variations of socialism...with the extreme right being Nazi/fascist socialism (alive and well by virtue of "Pax Americana") and the extreme left being international socialism (i.e. communism) which supposedly died with the Soviet Union yet is quite alive and well by means of the United Nations and European-based globalism.

      I like libertarianism (small "l") which advocates freedom and independence for individual...something which is anathema to both the left and right with their various excuses for freedom/independence removal and various kinds of coercive communalism.

      And no -- I SHOULDN'T study through DC Talk lyrics. First of all, I'll let you do the work. I've got other things to do. Secondly, I'm not very interested in what he was doing 20-25 years ago. Thirdly, you are STILL missing my point (which is getting rather bothersome) that I do NOT claim an absolute dearth of "Jesus" references. I only claim there seems to be a game going on, particularly with Mac and Smith (two that I've studied) to see how much they can get away with being content-less and Jesus-less.

      And when you plow deeper into this topic, you're wandering waaay off with this isolated puzzle piece about "lyrics of suspected wolves". I don't think this is working very well. As I said in my previous post -- this is what happens when somebody (yourself) insists on isolating a piece of this worldwide picture of a satanic globalist quest. You're not getting it.

      While you're quibbling about whether "Jesus" appeared here or there...I say again, (probably to be IGNORED yet again by you!) there ARE satanic wolves in the flock...they ARE diabolically concealed. So again, Falling...where ARE any of these? If you don't like my suspects, YOU point out some.

      I explained briefly in my post prior to this just HOW these wolves' strategies are designed to work. You're seemingly avoiding that.

      As far as "mistaken identification"...I don't mean to seem harsh but I am simply not going to accept a lecture from you about the ills of "going all in". I did absolutely nothing to warrant such an advisory. That's my two cents right there!

      As to your first question -- For a Bible literalist, occultism encompasses all demon- or Satan-related activity. Anything from a satanic Illuminati US president undertaking human sacrifice at Bohemian Grove...to the guy who reads his horoscope in the newspaper. Many (like perhaps the horoscope guy) participate in occultism without any conscious awareness.

      Delete
    23. As far as the rest of that particular post...I really can't even tell what you're driving at. It LOOKS a little as though you think you're crafting arguments by means of questions...but that's just a guess. If you've supposedly read all the way through chapter 7 and still have such questions...I don't know what to say.

      There IS a worldwide network of satanists. They ARE pushing a satanic globalist agenda. Their network HAS spread to all walks of life. There have now been many ex-satanists and ex-Illuminati (really the same thing) who have come out whistle-blowing. They confirm these people DO communicate by means of symbols and signals.

      I don't know what to tell you about your entrenched "oh, we can never know about occult symbols". Recognizing a satanic salute is the same as recognizing a Nazi salute. I don't know what you're struggling with.

      You've seen the secretive, sneaky insertion of symbolism though at least two chapters of my book...and you're still claiming puzzlement. I just think it's silly at this point, especially after the MSmith stuff you've seen...and the Pat Robertson thing...and the Kay Arthur stuff.

      And no, I'm not going to take you through the Scriptures on a Bible lesson about the Antichrist, the "mark of the beast" and satanic world rule. Brother, what is your church affiliation?! I'm guessing Presbyterian or something? I think...if you want to understand my worldview...you should probably read my entire thesis. I can NOT reproduce my entire thesis here is the commentary section of this little blog. Ain't gonna happen!

      And again, you're stuck in an imbalanced fashion on the pages of Scripture...when Jesus is instructing us to go BEYOND mere Bible reading and prayer...and become savvy world-watchers. I'm getting info about a network of satanic minions not just from the Bible (Matt.24 "many false prophets" / "wolves in sheep's clothing" / "those who are of the synagogue of Satan" / on and on) but from the evidence I see in the world around me as I comply with Jesus' instruction to keep my eyes peeled for the world events He describes.

      Again (and again) did you COMPLETELY miss the compelling and startling evidence of high-level and widespread Luciferian allegiances in my little occult-symbol tutorial in Ch.1? (And did you get to Ch.11 yet?)

      How can you ask questions about occult allegiances in high places when I display very strong evidence right there? Not to mention what would happen if you used some of your own elbow grease to go on the Internet and find hundreds of other such evidences.

      Like TV repair (an analogy you claimed to have understood) you won't find specific members of the army of Satan depicting signals and symbols of allegiance...on the pages of Scriptures! Falling, what is going on in your mind, my brother?

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    24. And the last section about Mac's song -- that's fairly obnoxious, Falling. First of all, the song does nothing to clear up the deadly confusion about PreTrib, contrary to your false claim about this song.

      Secondly, the masses of the church world are still fast asleep, swaying to and fro with their eyes closed in deep hypnosis in various CCM arenas and super-churches around the continent...and all of this 5 minutes before the return of the King (give or take a few years or decade)...with the Antichrist cabal sweeping through the world with war after war after rumor of war, the police state closing in in America, the "mark of the beast" technology already being implemented, a veritable platoon of satanic wolves having now been prepositioned in the church world as Jesus prophesied would happen (and you strangely contradict).

      Satanic or not, Mac is the absolutely worst excuse for a "CCM artist" I could possible imagine. Completely tragic, the diet being offered up to needy young people these days. The lyrics to his big hit "Eye On IT"...a total joke as far as serious Christianity is concerned. Sorry about the frankness but...you're lack of biblical intuition after seeing all the evidence of a luciferian network and the closely connected Scriptures about an emerging network of "false prophets (i.e satanic and counterfeit "Christian" leaders)...it's a disconnect for me. I don't know where else this discussion can go. I think you need to read my thesis in it's entirety if you're THAT interested....interested enough to have huge, lengthy discussion such as this. You'd be halfway through my e-book by now!

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    25. Falling:
      "Could I have a little Scripture exegesis on this point? Specifically, on whether prophecy fulfillment necessarily requires global domination. (Would I be correct in surmising this would be a One World Government.)"

      Refer to Genesis 11:1-9. You will read all about the very first One-world government--united in language, religion & purpose. These people rejected God. They built the Tower of Babel. God wanted none of that and destroyed the tower, scattering the people & confusing the language.
      1. Does this not tell you God does not want a One World order?
      2. What do you suppose happened to those Babylonians' descendants? They are alive today. They are rebuilding the Tower of Babel, commencing their ancestors' plan of one world united against God(google image of the UN Headquarters building....look familiar?)

      Furthermore, your position is heavily influenced by ecunemicalism, whether intentional or not, you need to realize that the common ground unity you seek between Christians is at the expense of sound, Biblical doctrine. Ecumenicalism leads to apostasy, so be self-aware.

      You tell Matt not to divide the Church, but Jesus Christ said, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." ~Matthew 10:34-36.

      The Word of God is MEANT to divide--we are not here to please men, but to do the work of the Great Commission, and if a fellow brother/sister needs correcting, it is our duty to do so, or we will be unequally yoked.

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  51. Adding my 2 cents: Judging is not when you tell someone they're doing something wrong. A Police Officer is not judge yet he gives you the ticket for speeding. The judge gives you the consequences for those actions. When someone tells you that you shouldn't do something that is not judging. That is correcting. Try telling a Police Officer not to judge you when he gives you a ticket. Lol

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    1. Well, I never said he was "judging". I have only said that if it's OK to warn people away from charlatans and wolves in the flock (like the above commenter would presumably do with Robert Tilton)...then...I am not even going THAT far. I'm simply pointing out occult symbolism and signaling and expressing concern.

      Unless...your comments were meant to side with MY view. (?) :-)

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  52. What the freak man, are you being serious?

    First of all I find none of these examples even close to make sense, plus most of them are completely wrong:
    - M.W.S. isn't wearing this at all (http://www.prayers-4u.com/kabbalah_red_string.jpg) but some normal braclets
    - the infinite symbol ....just means infinite o.O
    - the position of Toby Mac is just to look "cool", not to show one masonic eye O.O
    - the arms position is to create a triangle, yea, sure... a bit more complex?
    - the symbol in third day album is clearly a compass symbol that is found in "vintage" maps...and it says "Atlanta, Georgia" ...and the title is "Move". not hard to understand, rather than go and pick up a satanic symbol that recalls the much more used compass symbol.
    - ...and so on.

    But, more than these details, can you explain how on earth they'd be bringing some bad influence in the church if so many people get closer to God through their ministries? Would be pretty stupid strategy for them or from masons, wouldn't it?

    And, further more, isn't it true that we will see if they're Christians by their fruit? What's the bad fruit in their lives?

    Can I rather say something.
    I rather see judgment in your words towards somebody that is bringing good fruit in the Church .....this is something that brings disunity in the Church. Not something very healthy, don't you think so?

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    1. You ask if I am being serious (and you use the "Christian" version of the F-word, by the way). Yes, I am being serious. (?) Don't know why all you Mac fans who come here using questionable words and language don't just go ahead and remove the thin veils and use REAL foul language. You seem like you're aching to do so.

      You have no clue what you're talking about, I'm afraid. There ARE such things as occult symbols and occult signals. And there ARE such things as wolves who infiltrate the flock. You seem to be indicating there is no such thing. Your disagreement is with the Bible...not with me. If you don't like some of the folks on my 'suspects list' then how about YOU point out some diabolically deceptive and concealed wolves currently on the scene and who have fooled virtually the entire church world. I'll be standing by.

      Your snarky run-down of various occult symbols and signals...is without proof or evidence. Arbitrary claims.

      By the way, who is "getting closer to God" among Mac fans? The guy has zero references to Jesus or the Gospel in virtually the ENTIRETY of the lyrics to his "raps". You can't get closer to Jesus if you never mention Him nor ever HEAR Him mentioned at a Toby Mac concert. It's ridiculous.

      Have you read the lyrics to his big hit "Eye On It"? You know...the rap that went to #1 on the charts? It's a disgrace. It's a joke. Absolutely zero content. There isn't a single Gospel presentation on even one single Mac lyric. I know. I read through every single Toby Mac lyric.

      What "fruit" are you talking about therefore?? He preaches the Gospel nowhere and at no time. He makes a few smarmy, uselessly 'feel good' Christian-ese comments at his concerts that do not call for repentance and holiness...never ever warn of the end-times apostasy movement in the church with all the false doctrines being introduced. In fact, Mac and Michael Smith are LEADING the movement into false apostasy doctrines...such as the essentially satanic "Contemplative Prayer" doctrines.

      Jesus warned in the Olivet Discourse that in the last days "false prophets" (i.e. satanic "Christian" leaders) would emerge who would lure the church world into apostasy. Are you in disagreement with Jesus? If not then where ARE these satanists hidden within the church world? Please point a few out.

      Personally, I tend to go by which flags these people are flying. If Toby Mac places a satanic "all-seeing-eye" on a DC Talk CD ten years ago...then places another one on his "Eye On It" CD just a few months ago...I tend to take people at the face value of their satanic salutations. But by all means...you keep paying $100 a pop to go to Mac concerts. SOMEBODY'S got to pay for his multi-million $ mansion.

      Delete
  53. Yes Matt24, I see the progression you've mentioned. I'm afraid, however, that I don't believe most are starting out genuine. Because really, a true believer is supposed to be drawing nearer to The Lord, changing from glory to glory. I usually only see self glorifying amongst most CCM artists. Plus with many of these artists, I looked over older album covers. A lot of them have occult references even in the earlier days. I even think DC Talk was blurring the lines early on. But don't they have to initially garner a following by setting themselves up as the real deal? That's why earlier albums may seem more Christ centered.

    You already demonstrated this in your book (which I would like to remind everyone, you've done free of charge); but I did some looking into record labels last night. Most roads seem to lead back to Universal. So, no (or few) "Christian" CCM artist is independent, nor are they managed or influenced by mature, Christian mentors, leaders, etc. It's a world very much out of public view or scrutiny, and I just don't see how a true believer would have peace about it.

    Another example is Jennifer Knapp. I listened to her years ago, and really liked her. I actually stopped listening to a lot of music before she left the scene, but her recent "coming out" is upsetting. Such deception, and she has peace about it? So, my thoughts began to drift back to "was she even really a true believer"? A friend of mine is adamant, that "yes!"she was a believer who just became confused and attacked by Satan. Well yes this can happen. But I believe otherwise. Because since Satan appears to like to take his time planning, plotting, perfecting, in the "world", as we can see, why wouldn't he do the same in Christianity. Build up young starlets to indoctrinate the young ones, then twist the story while keeping those faithful followers. Deceiving and being deceived.

    It's by God's grace my eyes have been opened, so I keep praying for believers and really all of mankind to have their eyes opened. Sadly, a strong delusion will be sent upon those who do not love the truth. Biblical truth is being badly twisted or altogether dismissed. All of the feel good or Kingdom now messages bombard us. And our "favorite Christian artists" just keep pounding out music that tingles the flesh and tickles the years.

    Sadly I think you're right, Toby won't respond to these claims. Nor repent and distance himself from even the appearance of evil. I pray for him, Lecrae, Knapp, ... The whole lot of them. But it's the young that are being targeted. So we need to educate them, help them see the truth, and seek God for His direction.

    Knowjesustoo

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    1. Yes, I agree -- a lot of these groups like DC Talk appear to be putting on a more Christian-ish front in their early days...just to gather initial popularity.

      I remember reading about Jennifer Knapp "coming out". Similar situation with Ray Boltz. Amy Grant has now come out in full support of the "gay Christian" movement. The Evangelical movement has collectively lost its mind, or so it seems.

      My old hero, Chuck Swindoll, has now written a book giving glowing endorsement to "Contemplative Prayer" which is nothing but a thinly veiled occult practice. Folks can go to LightHouseTrailsResearch.com and use their internal search engine to read all about it.

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  54. I don’t understand why someone marketing themselves as christian bands would do that if they were practising occultism. I mean what’s the point of giving signs but not coming out in the open.

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    1. I think you're misunderstanding something-- these 'signs" that they display are unrecognized by the Christian community. The (apparent) occult status of some of the "Christian" singers and bands...are completely unknown and concealed.

      The whole point of occultism is to remain concealed, hidden, unseen. It's all about dishonesty and deception. They wish to infiltrate the Christian world as wolves...as predators.

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I am once again allowing anonymous comment but will continue to "moderate".